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Between work, kids, and everything else, friendships are usually one of the first things to slide. Then we feel guilty about it. My guest this week explains why it isn’t just you, and it isn’t a lack of effort.
Anna Goldfarb is the author of Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections, a book I absolutely loved reading earlier this year. After interviewing more than 100 people about their friendships, she explains why friendships are harder to keep than they were for our grandmothers’ generation, and how to keep the ones that matter when you have little time to spare.
You’ll learn how to decide which friendships get your energy in this season, why it’s okay to let some fade without guilt, and a simple text you can send this week to make a friend feel seen. If you’re missing your friends, or you want community and don’t know where to start, you’ll also hear how to start small.
This episode is for any working mom who wants closer friendships but doesn't necessarily have time to add one more thing to her calendar.
Links and resources mentioned in this episode:
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You are listening to the Life Coach for Working Moms podcast, the show where we are talking about what it actually takes to make life work as a working mom. I'm your host, Katelyn Denning, a full time working mom of three and a certified life and executive coach. I'm so glad you're here and I hope you enjoy this week's episode. If you have ever looked at your calendar and thought, "I would love to see my friends, but I just don't have the time," this episode is for you. And if that thought came with a little pang of guilt, it's really going to be for you. 'Cause here's what happens to a lot of us, myself included. We add kids, we keep our full-time job, and we have a household to run, and somewhere in there, our friendships slide to the bottom of the list. The friends that we used to talk to every week become the people that we text and say, "We need to catch up," and then we never do. Or we are surrounded by people who only talk about kids and what we're having for dinner, and we are maybe craving something else. Or we've moved, entered a new season, changed jobs, and we have no community at all, and no idea how to build it because there's no dorm hallway anymore where friendships just kinda happen. For a long time, I thought that was a me problem. I thought I just wasn't making the time or I wasn't being a good enough friend, and I've carried guilt over friendships that faded, ones that I never made a conscious choice for them to end, but life just happened. As you know, I'm a mom of three, and I work full-time, and friendships were one of the first things that shifted in this season of my life. When my kids were little, I needed other moms who understood the sleep deprivation. And then as my parenting journey has changed and the people I was spending time with didn't match what I needed anymore, I didn't really know what to do about that either. Then I read Modern Friendship by Anna Goldfarb earlier this year. I listened to the audiobook first, and then actually bought a copy so I could take notes in it. That's how much I loved this book. Because Anna provided so many of the answers that I was looking for, and I was thrilled when she said yes to being on the podcast. Her answer to the guilt is that it isn't just you. The way that friendships work has changed, and once you understand how they've changed, you can stop blaming yourself and start being intentional about who gets your very limited time. In this conversation, you'll hear why the friendships that fade may not be anyone's fault. You'll learn a framework for deciding who belongs in your inner circle in this season, and it does involve a bathtub and a jacuzzi. And you'll hear one small thing that you can send to a friend this week that takes about a minute and works better than, "We should catch up," or, "I miss you." Links to Anna's book, her Substack, and everything that we talk about in this episode can be found in the show notes at themothernurture.com/podcast. I hope you'll go check those out, and here is my conversation with Anna Goldfarb Welcome Anna to the podcast. I am so excited to talk with you Oh my gosh, thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk with you, too. Yes. So let me just set the scene for everyone. I came across your book, Modern Friendship, and this is a topic that comes up a lot in coaching and with my community of working moms of a couple of flavors of I don't have time for my friendships the way that I used to, , in this new season of my life, I don't have the types of friendships that I want that feel really supportive, , or I'm just lacking community in general, and I don't know how to build it because I'm no longer in college where it was easy because you're just in that environment to make friends. , so it's some flavor of that, and it's wild to me how frequently this topic comes up. So what I love most about your book is the framework that you provide, and really this reminder for all of us that friendships do take intention and attention, and that's so much of what we talk about here in terms of how we spend our time. So we're gonna get into all of that, and I can't wait. You've been called, I think people call you, , the friendship correspondent, or maybe the friendship explainer. How did you become this voice on this topic? You know, my background's in journalism, and I had been reporting mostly for The New York Times about, how to live your life. I was writing for a section called Smarter Living, which is all about what to know, how to know, how to move forward. And in 2017, I had just gotten engaged, and I was noticing that, you know, , my love life was going great, but my friendships were really tumultuous in a way that I didn't expect. Like, I kind of in my head thought, "Oh, when you get married," you know, so naive. I just thought, like, "Oh, everything's great." I mean, that's the happily ever after. Mm. So I was really taken aback to have all these friendship hiccups am I a bad friend? Are they a bad friend? Like, is something wrong with my friendship picker? Like, why do I keep having these bust-ups? So for Smarter Living, I pitched an article, How to Maintain Friendships, And I had no idea that this was going to take over my life as an obsession Mm-hmm ... in just a few years. But writing this article in 2017, I realized that there's such a thing as a friendship expert. I interviewed Shasta Nelson, who's one of the OG friendship experts, and she blew me away. She wrote a book called Friendtimacy where I learned that friendships require three things: , positivity, consistency, and vulnerability. And that blew my mind, that th- that you could diagnose a friendship. I mean, it's, it always felt like I've been stumbling in the dark, and to have someone shine a flashlight in the room to be like, "Well, this is actually what moves the needle," and I put that to work in my own friendships, and they started transforming before my eyes. So I realized how powerful this was just to have some guidance of, well, this is where you start. And it, it wasn't A heavy lift. It wasn't out of my comfort zone. You know, positivity. I would send, you know, little jokes or, "Hey, I, I picked up a lip gloss for you. Like, I thought that this shade would look good on you." Just little things like that, or, "I got you a chocolate bar." And then consistency was, you know, how can we make our hangs more consistent? And vulnerability of, well, here's what's really going on with me, and that really transformed my relationships. So that's where I started getting more excited about friendship of, wow, this is very, I know this word's kinda cheesy, but empowering of, wow, I can make a difference without having to be someone else, without having to do... I mean, volunteering. Every- everything's, like, volunteer, and I don't wanna volunteer. I, I, I'm probably a very bad person for saying that out loud, but it sounds like a lot and s- and just a lot of unknowns. So I'm like, I don't wanna volunteer. I don't wanna do anything- Yeah ... out of my comfort zone. I already have people in my life who I love and enjoy, so how can I orient better to keep the love that I already have? Mm ... and so I started reporting more on friendships for Smarter Living, and the more I learned, the more questions I had. And during COVID I wrote a lot of articles because all of us were having our social lives shuffled at the exact same moment. Mm. Which is, like, wildly unusual, and all of us were asking at the same time, "Well, which friendships should I be keeping active? Which ones should I let go? And out of COVID, I realized I wanted to do something more comprehensive, and that's when I'm like, "I wanna write a book on this to really help people navigate- these waters. And with Modern Friendship, I wanted to do something a little different because a lot of friendship books are written by psychologists or therapists, and they talk about their clients. But I wanted to look more at the architecture of friendship and how it's changed so much. , and that's where my background as a journalist came in. I interviewed over 100 people about their friendships. I cataloged their pain points, and I really tried to do a fair job to show both sides of, like ... You know, I was surprised. Some people were like, "I wish friendships could be more casual. I wish we could just ... Why does it have to be so, you know, overwrought?" And that, that was an interesting perspective, too. It's like, oh, well, why is friendship so overwrought? Why do we, like- Yeah ... you know, hang on for dear life for so long even if we've outgrown a particular relationship? So with Modern Friendship, I wanted to do something different, and since I'm a service journalist, I wanted to provide instruction of just like how Shasta's work taught me, Her, her work is great on how to start a friendship. Mm. And I wanted to look into, how do you keep friendships going with people you already love, , and you already like? But it's exactly the pain point that your audience has of, well, I'm a busy adult with a complex life, and how do I maintain these relationships with so much churn and so much pulling on me, my time? , how does one do that in this culture? 'Cause our culture is historically new. - Yeah ... how, how hyper fluid it is. Yeah. So that's, that's Modern Friendship in a nutshell, you guys. Like, how do you do it? How do you surf these waves? Yeah. So my book is like a surfing manual for how to operate in these times. Yeah, I mean that shows, and for anyone who likes to pick up a book or read or listen to a podcast and walk away with, "Okay, I feel like I know what my next step is," your book absolutely delivers that, and I appreciate that so much. Thank you. Also, one of my rules was don't be boring. Yeah. So I really, really tried to make the book funny. I mean, listen, nobody wants to read nowadays, and so I wanted to make it fun. I wanted to make it surprising. I wanted to tell stories that you haven't necessarily heard before. , and really just do something a little different, so- Yeah ... if you're curious, you know, I would give it a whirl. I would give it a whirl. Absolutely. Absolutely. What you think? This is just gonna be one big plug for this book because I love it and I can't recommend it enough. So a lot of the women that I talk to, and, and from my personal experience too, I'm a mom of three, I work full time you know, I think as working moms we think it's us. It's because we added kids to the picture, it's because we have this full life that we don't have time for our friendships, but also I hear you say this might even be bigger than just our- Oh, girl, yes ... right? Girl, yes. And can, yeah, can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think sometimes it can be helpful to understand that there's a broader thing happening here. It's like the air that we're breathing right now. , what is changed about modern friendship that makes it more challenging? Modern friendship has radically changed, even just from what our grandmothers experienced. , just in a few generations the biggest shift is the infinite choices of people we can befriend. Mm. You know, to, to your grandma growing up, it was probably on her street, you know, who, who, who was in her immediate vicinity that she- Yeah ... could walk to. , there wasn't this endless choice we have of, you know, as adults in 2026, we have choice online, we have distance isn't a factor, time isn't a factor, gender isn't as much of a factor, you can befriend anyone. It's also the trade-off is that if you can befriend anyone, you can leave it quicker. Mm. I mean, these friendships are more fragile. So your grandma probably didn't have a best guy friend growing up, maybe you do. Maybe you're friends with an ex. You know, my grandma was married at 18. She didn't have an adulthood to have different friendships and explore those complex relationships that we get to have. Hmm. I get to be friends with my ex-boyfriends. My, that wasn't a Right ... my grandma, that was not a thing of like- No ... "Oh yeah, well, we dated in our 20s, but you know, it didn't work out, but it's fine, and we're still friends." Like, that wasn't even a relationship that was available to her. Right. So it's a bit like, I liken it to a supermarket, and just when you're hungry at a supermarket, you just go to what looks good. You have your appetites drive you. You put a bunch of random stuff in your shopping cart. Mm-hmm. Like, I'll just have pizza from the hot bar, ice cream, you know, whatever. Yeah. And you're checking out, and you're like, "Well, what am I gonna make for dinner?" 'Cause there's nothing... What nutritious thing is here? And that's what modern friendship is like, is well, social media, it's easy to see who's available, who's shiny. It plays on your emotions of, "Oh, I actually miss my friend. Oh, I should reach out to her," and you reach out something kind of vague like, "Hey, I miss you," and she doesn't quite get back, and you're like, "What- Yes ... what are we doing here?" it's very different when you have a shopping list, and you go shopping, and you're like, " what's on the list? I need to be focused. I need to be intentional." And then you can have a nutritious dinner if you have that sort of planning, and modern friendship requires that same kind of intentionality of who is on my list this season, like who am I- Mm-hmm ... focusing on? I'm not trying to chase every random connection I've ever had. Let me be focused. Let me be clear, and really just focus on, like, a handful of people this season. And then it's a lot more manageable and achievable when you're not just putting anything in your cart. Yeah. You're not just, like, reaching for anything. Yeah. And that broad availability , or , the expanded number of options that we have for who we could be connected with or reach out to then probably plays into this belief that we don't have time because we're just spread too thin- Yeah or we're not- Absolutely ... as you said, being intentional. Yes, and you know, I was telling my friend about this. I was saying like, but we get to do it. Like- Mm ... this is the trade-off is we get to meet so many fabulous people, and it's not realistic that we're gonna keep every connection active indefinitely. You know, Our generation got to further education if they wanted. We got to work outside the home. But the trade-off is we have all these connections that we have to organize and attend to. We don't have help for it. Mm. Our grandparents had a lot more help with keeping their connections active. Like, my grandma was in her sisterhood at her synagogue. She didn't have to pick a place to meet. Yeah. She didn't have to pick a time to meet. It was like, "I'll see you Sunday at this place." Yes. We don't... We typically, you know, if you're in a religious community or something, you still might have that, and that's part of the, , appeal, I think, for a lot of people. But for a lot of other people who aren't religious and don't have that kind of help, we individually have to make a case for every friendship of whether to keep it active or not. Mm. Like, of course it's exhausting. It's not like, "I'll see you girls Sunday. Catch you later." Right. It's on you. It's, it's on us, and that is the trade-off. The trade-off is that we get to have friends that might be higher quality or might be more interesting to us. Mm. If you just have your girls who live in your cul-de-sac and you all go to the same church, you're not as choosy. It's like these are just the women around, and- Exactly You know, friendships are like mirrors And we pick friends based on what they mirror back to us, what part of our identity they mirror back to us. And the modern woman has so many identities, so many more identities than women historically have ever had. Mm-hmm. So it's not just, you know, I'm a wife, I'm a mother. Now it's like, well, I'm actually separated or divorced, or I'm not a parent, , and I'm a runner, and I'm into video games, and I'm into gardening, and I'm into, Bravo shows. Right. And so there's all these different parts that we have, and we seek out friends based on what they mirror of what's important to us. But we are more dynamic. We have more sides to us. . So it's all the trade-off of modern friendship. I, I hope I'm not making people's heads spin around and explode No, it's helpful context, I think, Yes ... I wouldn't have thought of that. I would have just defaulted to, it's just harder because I have more on my plate and I have less time. Which, again, makes it a me problem because I'm not doing the work or I'm not making the time, which we can get into that, 'cause there is definitely, , work that we can do, things that we can do. But there's also all of these other factors at play, and you're absolutely right. My, grandmother, her friends were at church, and they lived in her neighborhood, and that was it. When I think about, too, I've had so many different jobs and careers in different cities that I've lived in, right? Whereas my parents stayed in the same job for their entire career. Yeah. Even that alone gives me so many more options. I'm like, oh, there were the people that I worked with at this place, and then when I lived in this city, and then when I did this career. Yeah. I wouldn't have thought of that. So many more options It, it's like going to a little a corner store in, like, a little town, and you're like, "Oh, I guess this is the cake mix on the shelf." Like, this is it. And then you go to a Super Target, and you're like, "Oh my God, there's so much choice." , that's what modern friendship is for our generation, and it's competing with so much leisure choice. So, like- Right ... I could literally do none of it. I could just watch Netflix and ... You know, part of the trade-off is that we have the internet to meet people or talk about things that are important to us. So it's not as important for me to have a friend who watches Bravo if I can go on a subreddit and just, , read or talk about, Salt Lake City. Mm. It's like I can get those needs met somewhere else, and that's also part of the calculus, is, well, why would I spend all the energy to meet up with a friend who doesn't watch Bravo when I'm actually interested in talking about Bravo? That's what I wanna talk about. I could just go to a subreddit. Mm. Like, what am I gonna talk about with this friend? Mm. And that's something I really deconstruct in the book, is how desire for a friendship works. Mm. And this is, I think, under- represented in the, when we talk about friendship is the desire of why are we making time for one another? What's in it for you? What's in it for me? And what I learned about desire is that every friendship needs a clear and compelling reason to keep active. It needs to be both, and that can explain why certain friendships fade through no fault of anyone. It's not anyone's fault, it's that it's not compelling to, to me. Mm. You know, if this is an old coworker, well, I'm not working there anymore. Maybe the first few months it was compelling. Oh, how's work going? How's the workplace going with me gone? But you know what? You move on, you don't care. So then it's like, oh, I haven't talked to, Donna in six months. It's like, well, what do we talk about? Mm. I don't know. It's not that compelling to me. So it's- That's so true ... and that's the undercurrent as we're busy , you have to make a case. So like, well, why would I reach out to this friend? I call them nostalgic friends. You know, we have active friends and nostalgic friends. And nostalgic friends are people that you have a lot of affection for, but there's not a compelling reason to stay active. , it's not a bad thing, it's just sort of matter of fact of like, we don't really have a reason to be in touch. I love you. If you need something, like give a shout. But everything's cool on my end. I don't I'm, I'm not- Yeah ... there's nothing compelling. But that can change in an instant. That can change all the time with modern friendship. Like, my dad died in 2021, and it was really interesting watching who I heard from because , this nostalgic friend who I, we couldn't really, like, get our friendship off the ground, but she had just lost her dad, and now all of a sudden we had a really compelling reason- Mm to be in touch. And we met up a few times and talked about both losing our dads, and then we stopped hanging out again because that was the reason. I mean, it was a great reason. It lasted for a few months, and we have a shared understanding of this part of us now, of now we're in this club of people who've lost a dad. And on Father's Day, she'll text me, "Thinking of you." Mm. And it's really beautiful, and that's what it is. Mm. It didn't, have to go, to be a bosom buddy. It's just I see you and I know this part of you. Mm. And that's what I'm hoping my work will help people understand is like there's so many shades within. It's not binary of we're best friends or we're nothing. Yeah. It's not- You know, these templates we had when we were young don't translate to adult life, where it's just much more fluid than that of, "Wow, we have no reason to be in touch. Oh, wait, now we do. Oh, interesting. Oh-" Yeah "... now we don't again." Like, that's- And that that's okay ... that's the... It's okay. It's how it goes, and it's really about trusting in it, of it's okay if we don't have a compelling reason to be in touch. I, I love that. I'll share this personal story because it just happened in the last couple of weeks, , and it follows what you're describing almost to a T. I, for a long time, felt some guilt about letting a friendship go because, again, there was no conscious choice. It just, life happened. We weren't in the same season. Didn't feel compelling. I didn't have that word at the time. Yeah. But I've carried a lot of guilt over, like, what happened to that friendship. But hearing you- Mm ... speak and from reading your book as well, it's absolutely a nostalgic friendship. It's a college friendship. But funny enough, we haven't been in touch for, like, 10, 11 years. Last week, two weeks ago, I was at a concert. Who's sitting in the row in front of me but this friend, right? From 10 years ago. And I lit up at seeing her. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I..." It was like, "I totally forgot how great you are and how fun it is to be around you." And we're actually doing an alumni event in a few weeks where I'll get to spend more time with her. And, and I love that idea that, like, I don't know how long this will last. Maybe this will just be we'll hang out together. We're gonna go sing in alumni choir together, and it'll be fun, and we'll reconnect, and maybe we'll review our old memories and have fun. And, and maybe it'll continue on and maybe not, and that's okay either way. It's like that permission to just- Yes ... let a friendship change , and not necessarily mean that you did anything wrong. Right. And- Or, you know, to, in letting it go. We don't have a lot of models for this in pop culture. And I think that's part of the confusion is you see really close friends, almost friendship monogamy, of we're just each other's ride or die. And I've been thinking a lot about ride or die and how it's just not a realistic template for adults. About how much pressure it puts on people to stay the same, and I think it'd be much more freeing... It has been freeing for me to be like, I love my friends, and there's fluctuations all the time. It's not, you know, it's not realistic for me to pick up a 3:00 AM call, 'cause I have a husband, and we're sleeping. Like you know? Yeah. I have my own life and my own priorities, and I need my own boundaries. Yeah. And this is a non-sequitur, but just friendships are shown as one thing in pop culture, and it's not always realistic or respectful or logical. It's sort of this mania of like, I'll, I'll hide the body. And it's like, well, that's not gonna work for me. I actually don't wanna hide any bodies. I actually have my own life, and I have my own things I wanna do, and they don't involve bodies being- Right ... buried. But I think like a more realistic outlook for friendship is I love you, and here are my limits, and here's what I can do. Mm. And I think that's just a more centered modern friendship. And, you know, just be open to what it looks like now, 'cause we change so much. And that's one of the other things I learned is, they can end at any time for any reason. It's a voluntary relationship. Mm. And that's part of the reverence I have for it, is it's not a parent, it's not a sibling, someone you didn't choose. I mean, friendships are chosen relationships. That's what makes them so special. Mm. But it also, has all this ambiguity of, well, what do we owe each other? And what, the closeness we had before, what is it today? And that's what makes friendships so beguiling to me, is there's just this ambiguity of what do we mean to one another, and it changes all the time. It's really, it's such a cool relationship. It's like do your kids ever do that like cornstarch with water, like sha- shape-shifts? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like wow, what is this thing? It's solid and liquid at the same time. That's what friendships are. Mm. One of my favorite concepts in the book- Was this idea of choosing which friends go into your, let me see if I can get them right, bathtub, jacuzzi- Mm-hmm swimming pool. Yeah. And then there's something further out. I kind of was trying to think of like a beach bonfire- Yeah, yeah ... and a water park. Like- Right. Right. And so when we think about friendships that change, we have, nostalgic friendships, friendships for different seasons. Can you walk us through that framework and how you decide maybe in the different seasons who belongs in which of these areas? Yeah. These numbers were based off of Robin Dunbar's research. He's a British evolutionary psychologist, and he looked at, , primates and how they organize their social lives, and mapped it on to humans. And he found these numbers. What I did was gave them watery names to highlight how fluid they are, , to really bring home that data point. The innermost tier I call the bathtub, and that's one to two people. And Dunbar found that for men it's usually one person. It's usually their significant other. But however, for women, it's usually two people, their significant other and their best friend. So that's their innermost intimate tier. The next tier is the jacuzzi, what I call the jacuzzi. It's three to five people. Those are your support group he calls them, and those are the people, you know, if you won an Academy Award who you'd thank. They are your closest friends. You spent about 200 hours with each of them. The next group is the swimming pool, 10 to 15, and those are people you've spent maybe up to 200 hours. They're, people you double date with or your favorite coworkers. And then the intimacy level kinda goes down from there. And the bonfire is more like a big party, like a milestone birthday party who you'd invite. And the water park is what he calls the weddings and funerals group. Mm. That's the whole enchilada of, everyone you know. Mm. And what's interesting about the jacuzzi and swimming pool is there's a lot of fluidity there, and what determines who's in which tier is the roles that they play for you, like how important the role is to your life and yours to theirs. , I drew on the work of Tom Rath, who wrote the book Vital Roles, and it was really illuminating. The role in the bathtub is companion. That's my husband. He's my companion. Mm-hmm. And that maps onto Tom Rath's Vital Roles of, like, the companion's your plus-one who you eat dinner with, you know? Like- Yeah ... who, who moves through your daily life. Jacuzzi, it's depending on what's most important to you. I have a champion in my jacuzzi, the person who, cheerleads my work. I have a collaborator in my jacuzzi, someone who's always down to try new things or try a new restaurant. In my swimming pool is my mind opener. He's, , my friend who's always like, "Y- you should check out this movie," or, "This director's doing really great work. Or, "This band's really good." So it's really what's compelling to me and what roles they play and what I play for them. Mm. And it changes all the time based on like I said, what's compelling to us. The mind opener may not be as compelling if you have a newborn and you're like, "I don't really am- not trying to find a new band right now. I'll, I'll catch up with you later." but the companion is probably very important to you when you have a newborn of, actually, I really need help with my meals or whatever. So it's about what roles they play for you. And some people ask me, can my family members be in my jacuzzi? And to that I say absolutely, providing they play One of these roles. So my mom wouldn't necessarily be in my jacuzzi. It's not that I don't love her. It's just that what role is she playing? So it's just interesting to think about. Like, you could still love someone. You know, actually I think my cat's in my jacuzzi, honestly, at this point. Like, Eleanor is in my jacuzzi. I think she's in my bathtub, okay? She's- Like, you can have I mean, pets are companions. That's literally what they do. And so Eleanor's kind of my companion role. She's always hanging out with me. Eleanor's my cat. Yeah. So this is all to say that it doesn't even have to be like some best friend who's known you since you've been six. I mean, it's really about who fills this role for me in this season, and I actually had a exercise of giving awards in the book of like, who gives me financial advice? Yeah. Who's most likely to give me a long hug? Who's most likely to let me sleep on their couch? And I even say, come back in six months and these names might change. You might be surprised. Maybe there's a child in one of these roles now. Like- Yeah ... you know. And that's normal. That is very normal for roles to change and, people to emerge, people to, to retreat. You know, we all are calculating all the time- Mm, yeah ... of who can give me what I need and who can reflect what I wanna see. It's such a useful framework, both the bathtub, jacuzzi, pool, et cetera framework, but also the roles. And I think about this in my own life of how much those have changed, and I think that's probably where I've felt tension or like I don't have the community that I want because I've been in those seasons where I'm still going to the friends, like for example, when my kids were really young , and what I really needed were a bunch of other moms who understood what it was like to be completely sleep-deprived and going through all of these changes and figuring it out. But then I've evolved beyond that, right? Where I am sleeping through the night and I feel like, okay, I'm starting to get my footing as a parent and I want to explore this hobby or this interest, or I'm, I really wanna put my foot on the gas in my career, and yet I still have a pool filled with people who just wanna talk about their kids and what they're feeding them for dinner, and I would be like, "Ugh," you know? I don't ha- Not as compelling ... it's not compelling. It's not compelling. Right. You're like, "This isn't, this isn't compelling for me." So your desire plummets. Exactly. And, yeah. And then I would go into a stage where it would be like I didn't hang out with anybody. Right? And so it's like- Hey, yeah ... how do I refill? You're in transition. Yeah, you have to refill your pool or whatever those categories are with the people who are serving a purpose, filling a need that you have in the current season, not just hanging- Yeah ... onto things from the past. You know, this is actually one of my tips for your listeners, is whenever I'm in a transition season and I'm like, "Whoa, I'm not really having as much closeness as I'd like," I write on a Post-It note right by my desk of a few friends I wanna focus on. Like, you know, people have been out of sight, out of minds, and I actually just did this before our call. I wrote down four names of friends. I wanna go and write them letters today. I wanna go to the store and pick out cute cards and send them letters. And it's like I do have abundance. I just don't have it in front of my face, and that's very, disorienting. So I have to remind myself, okay, who are the four friends that I wanna get closer to or reestablish, or just let them know I'm thinking of them? What can I do to just be proactive about it? Mm. And, you know, you don't have to solve it all at once. I mean, community's a really big thing, and another one of my tips is to start small. Yeah. Like, you don't have to figure this out all in one day. It really is about small steps and just picking... You know, Jacuzzi's only three to five people. So like just pick three people this season that you're gonna be outstanding to. Mm. And like that's it, and just pick three people, and maybe it's, all right, let me try to text or send a voice note to this friend and to that friend, and just start small. You know? Yeah. It's, it's very hard to create a community when you're a busy working mom. Like- Yeah ... I don't know how, how realistic that is, but what is realistic is maybe just touching base with a few people that you really love and giving them certainty of, "I value you, and I love you." Yeah. Yeah, there's so many creative ways, I feel like, to connect with people, and you give so many in the book. But for anybody listening, I think our default response is to think, "Oh my gosh, I have to look at the calendar, and I need to- Yeah ... pick a date, and ugh, I'll be looking at- I've been- ... January at this rate," you know, 'cause everything's so full. And, and that may be what you ultimately wanna work toward, and so if it's January, it's January. Like put it on the calendar now. But there's also so many other things that you could do in the interim that create some connection that aren't- Yeah ... time necessar- a huge time investment, right? You know, my favorite friendship hack is when I don't know what to say to a friend, I always share a wish of- Hmm "I wish we were together. I wish we were drinking mai tais by a pool," and to say something that- establishes to your friend we're still alike. We still like doing the same things. My friend who lives across the country, I always say, "I wish we were doing the s- the holy trilogy of Starbucks, Chipotle, and Target." Like, I wish we were just going... Oh, actually, TJ Maxx. I guess it's a quadruple- ... hit list of I wish we were going to TJ Maxx, and Chipotle, and then stopping at Starbucks, and then going to Target, and I wish that you were here with me. And that literally will power us for a few weeks of just I wish we were together doing that. Mm. So I think people say, "Thinking of you," or, "I miss you," and it's pretty rote- Mm ... as opposed to, "I wish we were doing this together." I think that- Mm ... that will remind your friend, we're still the same. I'm still here, and one day we will be sharing a small guac with chips. Like- Yeah ... I cannot wait for that moment, and I'll be here when you're ready. Yeah. One of my good friends has another friend in her jacuzzi that is not me, and I don't know that person, but they have set the expectation with each other that they would like to get their families together four times a year. And anything more than that is icing on the cake. They do live in the same city. And it's just a quarterly thing. Mm. And when they get together in this quarter, before they wrap up, they pick Their best guess at what they think will work for the next quarter. And I love that. I'd not seen that done in practice before until she told me about it because it does, it sets a realistic expectation. Again, to your comment about what pop culture tells us friendships should look like, right? That we're- Yeah ... popping over to each other's houses all the time and we're doing all these things on this regular basis. But, you know, when you have a busy life and you have lots of other people that you are tending to, maybe once a quarter, maybe once a quarter is too much. I don't know. You might hear that and think, wow, that's a lot. But they've set that expectation with each other that that is enough for us in this season of life, and I love that. The key is before you part ways to cut down on the admin, 'cause that is, that is the killer. That's actually one of the biggest complaints people have shared with me about modern friendship is all the admin, and it really makes such a difference to all do it together, and to share the burden of , when and where and just have it be settled. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another thing that I distinctly remember from the book too is deciding what, I don't know if you used a better term than this, but I'm gonna say minimums are for the different friends that you're focusing on. And I remember, I think you wrote about, like, birthdays. You know, if you decide that for maybe everybody definitely in your jacuzzi, maybe also your swimming pool, I don't know, you wanna send them a birthday card, or you wanna do a birthday text, or you wanna make a phone call, doesn't matter. Choose what it is and then make sure you're putting those on your calendar. Or I think you even said- Yeah ... are you gonna reach out on their kids' birthdays, you know? Yeah. Just setting those guidelines for yourself so that, one, you don't forget, and two, you're not having to make another decision in the moment. It's like, oh, I've already decided that these are the things that are important to me or that I wanna commit to in this relationship, if it is one that's still compelling in this season. Yeah. And it really is a guide of how to be an outstanding friend to a few people. Like, I, I cannot- Mm ... do this level with anyone I've ever met. So I think that that's the message you don't always hear. I mean, a lot of women are conditioned to just give and give and not rock the boat, and they get burnt out 'cause they treat everyone- the same. Like, everything's the same urgency of, "Oh, my former coworker wants to get together," and that, that's as urgent as my actual best friend who I haven't seen in six months. And it's like, no, they are not, they are not the same importance. Mm. And I have, like, a shortlist of people that I will do anything. If they say, "Can we get together?" I will cancel a meeting, move things. It's like, well, she's on the VIP list, and I can't do that with e- for everyone. But when she says, "Oh, I have some free time," and I'm like, "Girl." I tell Eleanor, my cat, "Cancel my meetings." "Eleanor, r- rework the day." Yeah. And that's the kinda energy I bring to my favorite friends is you are most important. I know how important this stuff is. Mm-hmm. I know that it's so hard to pick back up once you let it drift. Mm. And I also feel really honored of, like, I have friends that wanna spend time with me. I think in the midlife it's really the balance of people wanna hang out with me, but I have other stuff I wanna do. And I try to remember that I'm gonna be an old woman one day, no one's gonna call me. Like, it's an honor, it's a privilege to have people, like, wanna connect. Yeah. And it's a special thing, and I know it can be annoying- Mm ... Running around, but it's also we get to run around and be part of people's lives and to witness their triumphs and their challenges, and, to root for your friends. Everything with friendship is like, I want friends. I want people to throw me a party. I want people to be there for me. But that's not what feels good. It feels good to see your friends have wins- Mm-hmm ... and to feel a part of it. And I feel just as much joy watching my friends achieve their goals. Like, it's more sometimes than when I get a goal. It's just the best feeling, and that's why friendship's so important. It's not what they do for me, it's what I get to do for them. Mm-hmm. You feel needed. You feel like you belong. I mean, that's the belonging that people look for. It's by giving it to other people. Mm. And it fills a different, , piece for us than what we might do for our children or what we might do for a partner or a spouse. Yeah ... like I, I love that you shared that research that for women there's often a partner and a close friend in the bathtub, and I think that- Mm-hmm ... yeah, anecdotally I'm like, yeah, that is probably true for almost all of the women I know. And, and so there is so much value, not just in what we receive from our friendships, but in what it feels like to belong and to support other women or your other friends, not just women. Like, your friends in your life. Yeah. It's really beautiful, and the more I learn about friendship, the more I wanna learn more. Like, I've been obsessed with this, Katelyn, for 10 years of - Yeah ... and I'm still uncovering- Yeah ... you know, new things about this really special relationship that is unlike anything else we experience in our lives. And when you learn how to be a good friend all this knowledge bleeds into the other relationships of your life. Mm. These are foundational skills, relational skills. Of how to be there for people, how to sit with them, how to make them feel seen and respected and heard and valued. I mean, the more I learn about friendship, the more applications I find for it. Yeah. And in what feels like at times a more isolating world, probably more important than ever. Yeah, and I'm also been more creative with it, , it doesn't have to look like some girlfriends having, three glasses of wine on a Friday night. Like, that's not always possible. , and then I don't want a hangover, honestly. Yeah. I don't want... Right. But It doesn't have to look like one thing. Yeah. It's a variety of things that can create these feelings, and that's what I hope my work can help people understand. It doesn't have to look like just one thing. Yeah. If someone listening to this wants to start with one thing this week, what would you direct them to do? One thing I would map out your bathtub, jacuzzi, and swimming pool. I love that. And just really, you know, if you want more, , guidance, my book is designed to help you of like, who are these people, and will help you with certainty be like, "Okay, these are definitely people that are close to me." Yeah. And just getting a lay of the land will really help you fine-tune your efforts. And if you don't have a jacuzzi, that's okay, too. , it's okay if you don't have these roles filled. There are transition moments. Not every season's a season where you can focus on your friendships. Like when I was in grad school, guess what? Didn't have time. Yeah. You know? It's- it's not like full throttle. Mm-hmm. It's more when you have time or when you have bandwidth- Hmm ... , and you're really open to like , how does this relationship work. Yeah. And the other thing I would say is share a wish. Share a wish- Mm-hmm with your friends, with your best friends. And I wish we were together, I wish we were doing something we loved, and you're gonna see how effective it is. It's like a abracadabra spell of good feelings, of I wish we were together, I wish we were doing this specific thing. And you're gonna realize like- that's the magic. Yeah. That's where the magic happens. Yes. I wish we were doing this together. I'm gonna do that, and I think it is so much more powerful to do in the way that you describe , with sharing a specific experience as opposed to just like- Yeah, I wish we were at the concert ... I wish you were here. I wish we were at the concert, like, screaming- Yeah our heads off. Yeah. Waiting in line for a White Claw. I wish I was there next to you. Like- Right. Right ... you know? And that's gonna remind your friend of like, "This is why I like being your friend." Yes. Yes. You particular, and this is what we like doing together as friends. Yes. And I would go to TJ Maxx with anyone. Anyone, anytime, anywhere. Like, that just already puts... Even just seeing the sign- It's your happy place ... for TJ Maxx put me in a good mood. Yeah. Like, that's, those are the kinds of friends I want. Yeah. Totally. I have a couple of quick questions for you- Yeah ... rapid-fire questions so our listeners can get to know you a little bit better. We call this Off the Clock. So first question is for you. Are you more of a night owl or an early bird? Oh, night owl. Mm. Night owl. I love just, like, writing at night. My husband goes to sleep, and I'm like, "Oh, my God. What about this? What about this? What about this?" Then I just start- You come alive ... working. Yeah. So is that when you... Or my next question is always, when do you do your best, most focused work? Is it that late night time? A little bit, yeah, 'cause I'll have, like, questions, and then I'll start researching and- Mm ... I'm like a nut. I'm just a nut about friendship. And I'm like, "Well, what about this? Well, have you thought about this? Well, has this study looked at that?" And usually it's at, late at night. I love it. It's dorky. That's okay. I mean, I'm always so fascinated by this response of when people feel like they can really get into their flow. It is so different for everybody. So for you, it's late at night. Late at night. When it comes to, when it comes to calendaring or planning, are you a paper or a digital person? Digital. Mm. 100%. I like digital. Wonderful. Well, actually, I do both. I have a bunch of notebooks. I go through notebooks. I have a paper planner, and I have a digital planner. I'm very organized. You do it all. Wow. I do, I do all. I'm, I'm nondenominational. I do it all. I love it. And then what would you do with an extra hour in the day, with this magical extra hour? Oh, my gosh. If I had an extra hour probably do, like do a face mask- Mm-hmm ... and watch something dumb on my iPad. Yes. That sounds so fun. I would do like a full throttle face mask of, you know, really... Maybe do a hair treatment. Just- All the things ... all the dumb stuff. Are we doing this- All the things that- ... at home or are we going to a spa? Oh, doing this at home. Okay. At home, yeah. Yeah, all the random TJ Maxx goods I, I bou- I bought the other week. I'm like, "I should really use that." They're like stockpiled. Yeah, yeah. Yes. I'm like, "I should use that hair mask that, you know- That sounds great. I love it ... I had to have. What would you do for an extra hour? Oh Well, my, my default answer is to say read, but I also do a lot of reading all day long, so I might choose something crafty because I don't- Aw ... often make time for that. I'd do something crafty. I'll go do something crafty with you. Oh, well, let's do it. That sounds fun. I never do anything crafty. That sounds fun. Yeah. I could do that. I, I'll bring over the, I'll bring over a treat. I'll bring over some cookies- Ooh ... and we'll do something crafty. That sounds great. Cool. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. This was- Oh my gosh, thank you ... so delightful. I loved it. I could talk for hours. Highly, highly recommend your book. Do you wanna tell everybody where they can go to follow along on all of your curiosities about friendship and learn from you? Yes. I have a Substack called Friendship Explained. That's basically my laboratory, and that's where I get to explore a lot of the ideas I have about modern friendship. And the book, Modern Friendship, is out everywhere books are sold. , it's an audiobook, version two. A lot of people like that. , and I'm on Instagram @annagoldfarb, where I try to have fun- Yeah ... as much as I can. Yeah. And also, I run a free friendship helpline too- Oh That I answer people's friendship dilemmas. So if you wanna learn about that, you can go to annagoldfarb.com if you wanna learn a little bit more. But if you have a friendship problem and you want my take on it, you just leave a voicemail message, and I'll get back to you. That's been a lot of fun- Ooh, that sounds so fun I'm like the Butterball turkey line of just- "What's going on? Talk to me. I'll tell you what's what." I love it. That's such a great idea. Yes. Yeah. Well, we will put all of the links to everything in the show notes. I can tell you that the audiobook is great. That's how I read your book initially, and, , now own a copy that I can take notes in as well, because I found it that valuable. So if you're gonna start anywhere- Oh, cool ... I'd say start there, but also Substack sounds like a great option as well. Thank you so much for having me, Katelyn. Of course. I will, I will, we will do crafts one day. We will do crafts one day, and you can- One day ... take me to TJ Maxx. I don't go there very often, so maybe I n- I need a pro to show me the layout of the land. Oh, my God. I will, I will Sherpa you with TJ Maxx. It will happen. I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening and as always, for being a part of this working mom community. You can find everything related to this episode in the show notes at themothernurture.com/podcast, you can also find information about how I support working moms just like you through one-on-one, and group coaching, as well as access a number of resources and articles all on my website at themothernurture.com. I will see you again next week for another episode of the podcast.
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