Episode 129: How to Ask Your Partner for Help Without Starting a Fight
ITUNES | SPOTIFY
What if the fight about the dishwasher was never about the dishwasher? Working motherhood is hard, and when you're carrying more than your fair share of the mental load, it's easy to say "I feel like I'm doing everything and you're doing nothing," an argument you've had many times before.
My guest, Ali Miller, is a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified coach. She teaches us how Nonviolent Communication (NVC) changes that conversation by naming the need underneath it so you can connect and solve the problem instead of arguing and feeling disconnected.
You'll also learn how to start when your partner isn't on board, how to use NVC with your kids, and a five-minute first step you can take today. If I had to summarize this episode with an emoji, it would be the mind-blown emoji 🤯
Links and resources mentioned in this episode:
Download Ali's Feelings and Needs list - https://www.alimillercoaching.com/feelingsandneeds
Listen to Ali's podcast "Love Each Other Better"
Book a call with Ali - https://www.alimillercoaching.com/
Get the GROK Card Set - https://groktheworld.com/products/grok
Learn more about Fair Play - https://fairplaypolicy.org/
Apply for working mom coaching with Katelyn - www.themothernurture.com/application
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You are listening to the Life Coach for Working Moms podcast, the show where we are talking about what it actually takes to make life work as a working mom. I'm your host, Katelyn Denning, a full time working mom of three and a certified life and executive coach. I'm so glad you're here and I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Hello, hello. Welcome back to another episode of the podcast. I have a question for you. Have you ever had an argument about something as simple as unloading the dishwasher? I have my hand raised right now. Think we've all been there, whether it's the dishes or the laundry, or just the pair of shoes that have been on the floor of your bedroom for the last week. We think it's simple to ask our partner to just do the thing, to help us out, please. But what you're gonna learn in this episode is it's about so much more than that, and also The path to feeling connected and getting our needs met, whether it's the dishwasher or something much bigger than that, is really quite simple. I sat down with Ali Miller, who is a marriage and family therapist, as well as a certified coach who teaches couples non-violent communication, or NVC for short. If you are already familiar with this term, this philosophy, you are well ahead of the curve. This is all new to me. So you will get to be a student learning all of this from scratch alongside me, and I can sum up everything that I learned in this conversation with the mind-blowing emoji. I truly have no other way to describe it. It's fascinating. It is so simple and so powerful. I am still thinking about everything I learned and how I'm going to apply this to the relationships in my life and model this compassionate communication for my kids. So this is one where I am going to strongly encourage that you check out the show notes, or if that's not possible, have a notepad or something where you can jot down some key concepts here, because you're going to want to remember it later, just trust me. So enough of the intro. Let's get into this amazing conversation with Ali Miller Hi, Ali. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Katelyn. So happy to be here. I am so excited to get into this because I feel like I'm gonna be a bit of a student. So for anybody listening who is like, "I'm not really sure what this conversation is gonna be about," , come learn alongside me. So Ali and I actually have met as colleagues in the entrepreneurial space, and when I was thinking about this series that I'm doing on the podcast, bringing in experts to talk to us about different topics that are related to working and parenting- I thought Ali would be a great one to come in, and we'll get into all of the reasons why. But Ali, do you wanna do just a quick intro to tell us who you are, what you do, and then most importantly, what is NVC? Sure. , so yeah, so excited to be here and to talk about this with you and your listeners. So I'm Ali Miller. I kind of wear two hats. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, , licensed in the state of California, so I've been working as a therapist since the beginning of the 2000s. And then during the pandemic, I became certified as a clinic coach. A clinic coach is a, a therapist who's also a coach. And so, , I have been doing that for a number of years. And my main focus there in my coaching practice is, , teaching non-violent communication, mostly to couples. Sometimes I work with, , adult children and their parents who wanna work on their conflicts. , sometimes I work with siblings. So I, I share it with families in different capacities, but mostly couples. And, , I can talk about non-violent communication now. Yeah? Yes, please. Tell us, tell us- Okay. Well, actually, before you do- Okay I think that's a really important point that you just made, because some of you might be listening and thinking, "My partnership, my marriage is great," , "We hardly ever argue. This is not for me." And that example that you gave of adult children and their parents, wow, does that come up a lot for so many of us, and I think of just all of the different scenarios where good communication or having effective communication skills and tools at the ready could be helpful. So yeah- Totally ... that's... I, I love that example in particular. But yes, please- Yes ... then tell us, tell us about NVC. Yeah, so non-violent communication, it's a philosophy. Some people see it as a spiritual practice. It's a conflict resolution tool set, communication s- tool set. It's a lot of things, and it's used in a lot of, , different environments. So it can be used, , in the workplace. , it has been used between, , warring tribes or in, , governments what it comes down to is a set of tools that help us see each other's humanity, and so there's just vast, , ways to apply it. When I teach NVC, I teach it to people who love each other, who wanna love each other better. That's the name of my podcast, is Love Each Other Better. So I specifically focus on, , people in intimate relationships or, love relationships, people they really care about. , but just so your listeners know, there are other NVC teachers, trainers, who are sharing it in different capacities to help with, , all different sizes of conflict. Mm. Uh, it's also really helpful for inner conflict. So even if you have no relationships in your life, it's helpful because any conflict between two people, the process that we use to help resolve it through NVC can also be applied if you think of yourself as having, , multiple parts. So any time you're, like, stuck in a decision or you're, like, beating yourself up about something or you just don't know what to do, , you can think of that, as an inner conflict and then apply these skills to that, which is one of my favorite ways to use it. Mm. Um, but I can't go much longer without giving credit to the person who developed non-violent communication, whose name is Marshall Rosenberg. And he was a psychologist, and then he developed non-violent communication, taught it all over the world. He developed it in the 1960s. , he was a psychologist who studied with the founder of humanistic psychology, Carl Rogers. And Carl Rogers taught a lot about empathic listening and the skill of empathy. And so, , Marshall brought a lot of that into non-violent communication. So a big part of non-violent communication is empathic listening. Mm. Um, and I think of NVC as, like, it's how we listen, how we think, and how we speak, all three of these things. Mm. Some people call it compassionate communication. I like to call it heart-centered communication. Some people call it empathic communication. I also lately have been calling it efficient communication because it's so much about being efficient. Hmm. Um, there's different ways to describe what it is, because a lot of people hear the term non-violent communication and they think, like, hitting, right? Or, like- Right ... beating, right? And once you're learning and exposed to NVC, you think of violence in a different way. But before we're exposed to NVC, a lot of people think of violence as force and beating and physical violence. Whereas when we're in non-violent communication, when we're talking about violence, it's more about, , passive violence, like in terms of how we villainize people, or we create what Marshall Rosenberg called enemy images of people. We objectify people, and that makes it easier to oppress people- Hmm ... to exploit people, to dehumanize people. So NVC is about humanizing everybody, even if you vehemently disagree with them. Hmm. And the way we do that is by this radical concept that underlying every behavior, even the most egregious, horrible behavior, is a human being attempting to meet needs. , that still gives me chills when I say it. That's really the foundation for the whole approach. Like, we can get into the specifics about, , how to say this and how to listen in this way. But underneath it all is this concept, this principle that what all human beings are up to all the time, no matter who it is, is trying to meet needs. Hmm. And that's what unlocks compassion, and that's what shifts us into collaboration. What keeps coming up for me as I'm... That's a, a brilliant description. Thank you. I learned so much right there. But what keeps coming up for me as I'm listening to that is, is actually my relationships with my children. Hmm. And the work that I, I feel like , I could say many of us are doing to See our children's tantrums or whining or complaining as, you know, they're feeling a certain way and they are needing something, and what is it in that moment. But I'm also thinking about how, and I will be honest here, I do not always extend that to the adults in my life- Mm ... because they're adults and they should know what to do. And that's- Interesting ... I don't know if that's anything that you hear a lot, but I thought, yes, this really resonates from a parenting perspective, and I probably have a lot to learn when I think about my peer or adult relationships. I'm just, I'm so happy to hear you say that because I didn't know that's the direction you were gonna take. I thought you were gonna say, like, it's hard to see underneath my kids' behavior to their underlying needs, but I'm so glad that you do that. I think a lot of people don't. Okay. I was like maybe I'm in the minority. I don't know. Or- Well, yeah, I think there's a lot of people parenting just based on what the kids' behavior is and stopping there- Mm-hmm ... and not looking at the underlying needs. I think that's way more common. Mm. Um, so I'm delighted to hear that you are looking at the underlying needs of your children. And yeah. So what you're saying though, Katelyn, is when it comes to other adults in your life, it's like it's harder to give them the benefit of the doubt or have that- Yes ... compassionate lens. Yes. I think that there's something, at least for me, when I look at my children, I do have a lot of compassion. You know, they're figuring out the world or they're just happen to be tired or whatever it is. I'm, I'm more interested in understanding what is happening. Mm. And then I, maybe part of it is I give so much there that I don't have as much capacity for the adults in my life, or there is that, yeah, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt as much. Mm-hmm. I just wonder if that's g- I'm, I'm curious now. Now I wanna go poll everybody and see if they feel similarly or have a different experience. Yeah. I do wonder how much of it has to do with, like you said, you're giving so much to your kids that there might not be much left over for adults. Maybe. It could be that adults are triggering you more than your kids. Like, or that your expectations are higher for adults, and so- Probably that. Yeah Sure, sure Yeah, that you might be expecting the adults to be helping you meet your needs more than you're expecting your kids to be able to help you meet your needs. And if people aren't helping you meet your needs and you're expecting them to or wanting them to, you might feel really disappointed or really mad, and it's hard to feel compassion when we're mad and disappointed that our needs aren't getting met. Mm. Does that seem possible? For sure. Yeah. I, I was thinking through all of this when we think about communication in general of like- And a- again, I don't know if this is just me or, or if others agree with this or not, but thinking that if we are calm , and maybe reasonable, I'm, I'm thinking about in adult interactions now. If , we are calm and reasonable, , that we are communicating well, , that that's decent communication. I'm doing a good job if I don't get angry or I don't get frustrated, or at least not in that moment with that person. But I'm curious, .. Is there a problem with that? Is that really good communication? I mean, you know it's good communication if it's connecting. Mm. Right? So sometimes all it takes is being calm and reasonable, and connection is there. But we can be calm and reasonable and say things that are super disconnecting. So I d- I try not to think of it as good communication or bad communication, or even healthy or unhealthy, 'cause there's just judgment in that, but more like, is it connecting communication? , is it effective? Like, are we connecting person to person? And so I could be really calm and reasonable and be like, "I feel really rejected by you." And then you could get really defensive, because the language rejected by you tends to trigger defensiveness in people, because it's implying that the other person is doing something, and nine times out of 10, they disagree that they're doing it, and then you're off to the races having an argument about whether you're being rejected or not. When really, what's underneath I feel rejected by you is, "Ouch, I feel hurt. I'm longing for more connection or to know that I really matter. Like, could we sit down and talk about ways to really help me trust that I matter to you?" Mm. Whose responsibility is it to express the need when we are, you know, in an adult-to-adult conversation? You talked about, it's about getting our needs met. Yeah. What does- Whose responsibility is it to express the need? Yeah. The person with the need. Okay. Do you find that tricky for a lot of people? Yeah. It's incredibly tricky, which is why the work goes so deep, because- Unlike you, it sounds like with your parenting, which is r- radical, if I can say, like, a lot of us were raised to think our needs don't, to- told that our needs don't matter, or that our needs were a burden, or that we should be seen and not heard. Um, and so a lot of adults are actually, you know, 'cause adults were children. Yeah. A lot of adults have a really tricky relationship with their own needs, and so being able to just be like, "Oh, my needs matter, and therefore I get to make requests, and I'm not gonna make you responsible for my needs. But I'm really gonna own them, and I believe that, you know, I'm worthy," like, most people are not walking around with that level of self-confidence- Mm unless they've done a ton of healing work. So it gets really messy, 'cause we're like, "It's your fault," right? We blame others instead of taking responsibility, and part of why it's hard to take responsibility for our needs is because a lot of us are living with shame about having needs, and I really think it starts in childhood. So that's why I'm like, I really appreciate that you're seeing the needs under your kids' behavior. That's where it starts, like, getting curious about the needs of the little ones- Mm ... so that they know that, oh yeah, this is 'cause I have needs, and then they can build a vocabulary of their needs. And then when we take their needs seriously, they learn that, like, oh yeah, this matters. And then when they're the grown-ups, they can express themselves clearly without being burdened by all that shame and the tangly mess we get into. Mm. So as the person with the need who, if they've done the work and can get to a place of feeling comfortable expressing it, they express it, but then we also have to be met with somebody else who's willing to see it, help us meet the need. How does that... Right. Like, talk, talk me through both sides of that experience. Yeah. So, so there's some concepts that will help. Okay. So there's a, a, a lot of NVC is learning the distinction between this and that. So when it comes to needs, there's the distinction between needs and strategies to meet our needs, which I can go into. . And when it comes to making requests, there's the distinction between request and demand. There's also, just side note, two other key distinctions. One is the distinction between observation and interpretation. . And the other key distinction is between feelings and thoughts. Sure. Okay. But so you said, so it's my responsibility to know my needs and then, , make a request, right? Yeah. Totally. The thing you said was, like, then the other person has to be willing to meet the request. So absolutely not. They don't have to be willing. If they have to be willing, then that's more like demand energy, like you have to be willing. You have to do this thing I'm asking you to do. No. So NVC says, okay, you have needs, I have needs, we are all responsible for getting our needs met, and we are all interdependent beings, so I can't meet all my needs by myself. I need other people in order to meet a lot of my needs. Same for you, same for everybody. Sure. So- What I wanna do when I notice I have a need is to first really check, is this actually a need or is this a preference or a strategy? And so we use these lists in NVC training of universal human needs. These are words like connection, belonging, meaning, purpose, play, , shelter. The needs that every single person has. And then we distinguish that from strategies to meet the needs. So the need would be the what and the strategy would be, , the how. Sure. So, a need for connection. How? Uh, a phone call with you, right? The need for support. How? , empty the dish- can you empty the dishwasher? Right? So we really separate these things out. I don't need you to empty the dishwasher. I would like you to empty the dishwasher 'cause it would really help meet my need for support. Mm-hmm. And there are multiple ways we can get our needs met. So sure, emptying the dishwasher might be, like, my first choice, but if that doesn't work for you for whatever reason, I would want us either together or on our own to come up with other strategies that you can meet my need for support. Because if you're my friend or you're my partner or my roommate, most likely we wanna be in a supportive relationship with each other where, we're helping each other meet our needs for support. Yeah. Right? If, if I come at you with, like, the only way you can help me meet my need for support or the only way I'll feel supported is if you empty the dishwasher, you know what's gonna happen? Your need for autonomy is gonna be like, "Whoa. Hell no." Like, this is a demand. No human likes demands. I don't wanna feel like I have to do anything. And at the same time, I want to contribute to your wellbeing. Like, we want to contribute to the wellbeing of others. It's like, at least in this philosophy, that's, , a foundational assumption- Mm-hmm ... that humans wanna care for each other. But we need to feel connected in order for that to get unleashed, and we need to feel like we have a choice. And so demands can really wreak havoc on relationships, as I'm sure most of us know and have seen. Yes. Yes. Yeah. The dishwasher example is so perfect, and I'm glad that you're explaining for us the difference of what a demand sounds like, and then what, what's the opposite of that? An ask? Request. A request. Request. Mm-hmm. Okay. Because what I am really excited to talk to you about is where I see this, and, and probably in your work as well, is the majority of the women that I talk to, if they are going to argue or feel disconnected from, let's say, a partner, it is surrounding household responsibilities, parenting responsibilities, and the mental load. We have, and again, just speaking from the working moms that are listening to this podcast, feeling like we are carrying more than our, quote-unquote, "fair share." And now I'm rethinking everything through what you've just shared, but, right, carrying more than our fair share, and when we make a request that maybe is actually a demand that our partner step up and do more or empty the dishwasher Who knows? You know, every scenario is different, but often met with either a no or a later, and then I don't actually do it, and then this resentment builds up and this frustration until it bubbles over into what is probably an argument about something far removed, but all could be traced back to this initial request or maybe demand, depending on how it was phrased, of emptying the dishwasher and helping me out. Exactly. In a way it's complicated, but it's also simple. Like- the simple thing is, like, there's a reason they're not emptying the dishwasher, and if we can get curious about that, then we can go, "Oh, okay, you're not emptying the dishwasher 'cause you have certain needs. What are your needs that are preventing you from emptying the dishwasher? These are my needs. , how can we work together to attend to all of these needs?" And then we're teammates working on it together, as opposed to enemies, , trying to win. I think it reframes something when you think about what you said. Asking your partner to empty the dishwasher is not just about the dishes getting put away. It's actually about a need for support, and I think that's a great intersection or crossover with Fair Play and the work that I do using those tools, because it is ultimately about we want a more equitable, not equal, but equitable division of household labor or mental load or parenting responsibilities. There's often a, a greater want or in, in these terms, a need that we have, which is maybe it is time for connection. Like, if I'm doing all the work, I have no time left or energy left at the end of the day to sit down and appreciate you and connect with you. Or I have no time or energy to do something creative, and that's a need that I have. It leads to all of these other bigger things that we ultimately want, and the means to getting that is to come to the table, to have a conversation, to be curious about what might you be able to take on. Maybe it's not the dishwasher, but maybe it's going to the grocery store, you know, or whatever the other chore is. Yeah. And so I, I, I love that thinking about it's not just the dishes. Right. Yeah. It's not just the dishes. It's about the needs that are, under it all. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , I'm curious what your response would be through this lens of NVC. You know, the phrase that I hear a lot is, you know, coming into a conversation, probably having these unmet needs and saying like, "I feel like I'm doing everything, and you're not doing anything." Which just leads to a repetitive fight that probably happens over and over again. What do you say instead? That's it. So we'll go into it. Great. I feel like I'm doing everything, and you're not doing anything. So remember I talked about those four key distinctions, and I- Mm-hmm ... kind of glossed over some? Mm-hmm. So there's a distinction between observation and interpretation, and there's a distinction between feeling and thought. Yeah. You know you're in the land of thought instead of feeling, a- and write this down. This is, like, such a good takeaway. Anytime you say, "I feel like," it's gonna be followed by a thought, not an emotion. Yes. Okay. I am talking about my feelings. I feel like I do everything. Not a feeling, it's a thought. You're talking about your thoughts. And nothing's wrong with talking about your thoughts, it's just people's hearts open up when we talk about actual emotions, and we stay in our heads and argue when we're talking about thoughts. Yes. So if you really want your partner's heart to open because you want them to actually support you, talk about your emotions. Mm. So then you just ask, ask yourself, when I feel like I do everything and my partner does nothing, what emotion do I feel, and we have these feelings lists to help build our vocabulary of actual emotions. It's like, when I think I do everything and my partner does nothing, I feel angry, I feel enraged, I feel frustrated, I feel freaking tired. Yeah. I feel hopeless, I feel discouraged, I feel sad. You just keep going. And then what I encourage my clients to do is share the most vulnerable feeling you're willing to share because that's what's most likely to touch your partner's heart. Mm. And that's gonna be what's the easiest for them to hear, and then it becomes workable. Mm. So we're not sharing how we actually feel. We're sharing a thought, I mean, when I hear that thought, if I were on the receiving end of I feel like I do everything and you do nothing, my guard is up immediately. I wanna defend myself. Yeah, 'cause it's a thought. That's not true. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So we, we wanna share, I want you to share your emotions, not your thoughts. 'cause that's what's gonna be more connecting. And English is interesting, right? I feel like. It's y- the word feel is there, but if the word like is after feel, it's not a feel. Same with I feel that. Sure. Or I feel you Or I feel I, right? I feel you don't do anything. I feel I do everything. Okay, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I disagree with you, and now we're gonna argue. Right. Plus, if you, you know, have a feelings wheel or a feelings chart of emotions, , that is not on that list anywhere, I do everything. That's not a feeling. No, it's not a feeling. It's an interpretation. Yes. Do you find, this is a side note, I have been thinking about this a lot in the last few weeks in particular, how limited our feeling or emotion vocabulary is. Yeah. Do you find that to be true as well? Totally. There's, when I teach MVC, there's this quote I use about, like, most of us have feelings limited to notes in a bugle call, but the mature adult has, , feelings like a symphony, right? So the, so much of the work I do with couples is building our vocabulary of feelings. Mm. I have a link to feelings list and needs list if you want me to share it with you. Ah. Yeah. That wa- Is that something we can share out to listeners? Yeah, , it's just alimillercoaching.com/feelingsandneeds. Perfect. We'll put that in the show notes. Yeah. I have assigned that homework to a couple of clients. That's why it's been on my mind, because I do find that we just don't have more than maybe five to 10, and that's probably being generous- Mm-hmm words to describe how we feel. Mm-hmm. And if we can learn that, again, to tie it back to parenting, not only does it help us as adults, but I think giving our kids a broader vocabulary as their vocabulary naturally expands with age is- Yeah ... only gonna be a benefit to them as well. Totally. And it really helps us in our relationships because it helps us understand each other. , I love thinking of communication, really accurate communication, as a bridge because I o- can only make assumptions about you until you tell me about you, and you can only make assumptions about me until I tell you about me. But if I don't know about me, like if I don't know what's going on inside me, how would I expect you to know what's going on inside me? And then , we don't have understanding. So, so much about communication is knowing what's going on inside ourselves so we can express that in a nuanced and clear way so that the other person can understand us better. And when both people are doing that, there's this deep mutual understanding Which then gives us so much more power to solve our problems together because when we understand each other, like truly understand each other, we care about each other. Like the care- Mm ... just gets unlocked when we understand each other. If you don't care about somebody, it's just 'cause you don't understand them fully yet. I mean, we'll probably never understand anyone fully, but you don't understand them enough yet. Yeah. And then once you do, it's like, "Oh yeah, I freaking love you." Like we love each other deep down. That's what I believe and what I see all the time. And then when I love you, when I feel my love and my care for you, I'm invested in helping you get your needs met. I want to freaking empty the dishwasher because I get how much that means to you, and then I can do it joyfully. Then it doesn't feel like a drag. But when you're like, "You have to empty the dishwasher," I'm like, I'm an adult. Don't tell me what to do. I can do what I want. Yeah. Don't tell me what to do, right? We get rebellious. Yeah. And then it backfires. Mm. How do you go about this work, or can you go about this work- By yourself- Mm-hmm ... if this is about a relationship? 'Cause I hear that a lot, i, I'm working with working moms who are trying to make changes. They want life to feel better. Right. And they are doing this work, and sometimes if we're, on the topic of fair play, incorporating some of those tools, it's like how do I get my partner to wanna do this too? I feel like I'm doing all the work. How does this work in practice if you've not both come together to say, "Hey, we wanna work on this issue," or, "We wanna work on our communication," or, "Have you ever heard of NVC? Let's explore it together." Yeah. How, how do you do it as one half of a relationship coming into this? Yeah. So I will say it's possible, and it's just a lot more labor, and you're already doing- Mm-hmm ... probably so much more of the work in your relationship that it might be incredibly annoying to hear somebody say, , "Oh yeah, you can do this on your own." It's like I am not the person to say that. I work with couples, 'cause I'm like, "Y'all, you both gotta do the work." Like, enough- Mm ... of the mental and emotional load on the women. Come on. Yes. Like, we gotta do this together. So that's why I'm going for what I think is easiest, which is why I work with couples. , when both people are working on it, that's the ideal. It's gonna go quicker, right? It's gonna be easier. Yeah, yeah. But not everybody has a partner who's willing to do it, right? So then what do you do? Do you just give up? No. , you do what you can and what you want to, right? Mm. Not like, oh, I have to do this, but if this, , conversation you're listening to right now is sparking any interest or resonance and you're like, "I wanna learn more about this because it's interesting to me, not because I have to, but because I want to," then maybe you could read Marshall Rosenberg's book. It's called Nonviolent Communication of Life. See if that sparks anything in you. You could listen to my podcast. It's called Love Each Other Better. You could see if that sparks anything in you. And then maybe you'll just start integrating little bits of it into your own relationship with yourself. Like, instead of beating yourself up next time you do something, , that you regret, you could ask yourself, "What needs was I trying to meet when I did that thing that I now regret?" And then you'll have more compassion for yourself. You'll soften in your relationship towards yourself. Or you might start just trying to express yourself more vulnerably to your partner. Instead of saying, "I feel that I do everything and you do nothing," what if you said, "I'm feeling upset 'cause I'm wanting more support. Like, could we talk about it?" Mm. Right? You just, like, little shifts that you're making because it's nourishing and exciting to you. So that you're not demanding of yourself. 'Cause everything that, all the ideas in NVC about how we talk to others also applies to ourself. And demand is a kind of violence, it's a force, it's a coercion, right? We don't wanna treat ourselves that way. Like, I just started taking guitar lessons, not because there's any, you know, it's, there's no should about it, I just want to. NVC is really helpful when it can be like that. It's like it lights you up. There's something interesting to you about it. , then you'll be motivated to wanna learn it and practice it. Yeah, not feeling like you have to do this work. Yeah. But if you are interested in it. I love, I love that, and that ties back to what you said at the beginning about how you really love this work for yourself even- Mm-hmm ... in relationship with yourself. That you can start there, and I think it's really brave , and I'd be curious if I were in that situation, I would be so curious to see what happens if I say, "I'm feeling really frustrated," or, "I'm feeling really sad that..." You know, or I guess that goes into a thought, right? But I'm just feeling sad about whatever it is. Yeah. And see what, does the response change? Mm-hmm. Do I feel a little bit more connected even if my partner isn't quite at the place where they can share what they're feeling? Yes. Do I feel proud that I was able to do that- Yes ... in that moment, and just be curious. Like, I wonder what would change if I said this- Yeah instead of that. Yeah, exactly. You mentioned in your intro that part of this work is about efficiency, which we're all about here because we're doing so many things. What do you mean by NVC or just these communication skills and tools? How does that help us be more efficient? Yeah. We are wasting so much time and energy confusing observation and interpretation, feelings and thoughts, needs and strategies, and requests and demands, just because most people haven't learned it. And so we're, , doing all these things unknowingly that are contributing to disconnection, contributing to fights, contributing to, , this back and forth that goes nowhere, and that's incredibly draining. And if you are a mom and you're a working mom, you know that, , you need to conserve your energy because this life is very taxing. And so if you can learn ways to communicate that are clear and that don't trigger defensiveness, if you can learn how to listen to the heart of what somebody's saying. Like, a lot of us when we're talking, we're not getting to the heart of it, but NVC trains us to really get to the heart of it. The quicker we can get to the heart of it, the quicker we can, , understand each other and hear each other and then work together to resolve things. That's what I mean by efficient. It's like we get to the heart of it, then we can solve it, then we can move on with our lives instead of being caught in that blame cycle that's just, , makes us sick and unhappy and separate and yuck. It's just yucky. We don't wanna be there. It's not where we wanna be. And so I'm like, "Hey, there's this whole tool set that will help you get into the, back to the love, back to the heart, back to the connection," and then you're freed up to, , solve problems together and have fun together and enjoy each other and laugh, all the reasons we get into relationships in the first place. Yes. I, I wanna set the record straight because I am not a perfect parent. I, yes, think about my kids' needs, but there are just as many instances where I don't. Yeah. And I was thinking in this season of our lives, I have, you know, three kids, and my youngest two are at odds with each other right now- Mm-hmm in this season. And when you think about having the same argument over and over again, or, the same sort of feelings that come up or whatever it is, this repetitiveness, that does take so much time and energy. I said that exact thing, was probably last week. They were having what felt like the same argument. I thought it was Groundhog Day. Mm-hmm. And I remember saying out loud, "I am so bored. I'm so bored of listening to this exact same argument between the two of you every other day." Yeah. Can we come up with something better? Yeah. Like, this is so boring. And so now I wanna go back and think through that- Yeah and see if I can, both for myself, discern or think about the needs that are being unmet, but also maybe- Yeah ... give them some words- Yeah ... or some language to use in that moment so that we can, like you said, stop giving so much time and energy to this argument that is happening what feels like every other day, and actually just get back to... I, I mean, they don't have to be best friends right now if they don't want to be. But can we- Yeah ... just not be so drained after having- Right ... to live through that all the time? Right, and it's not about sweeping it under the rug, it's about really going into it through what you just said, like what are the underlying needs? 'Cause if we're arguing it's because we have important needs. Mm-hmm. And so let's just get there. It's like, just go straight to the needs. Mm-hmm. And Katelyn, there are Grok cards they call them. They're feelings and needs cards that they make for kids where you can bring out this deck of cards and be like, "Okay, you're arguing, that means you have important needs. Let's go through this deck of cards. What are you needing, child A? What are you needing, child B? How can we attend to what you're both needing so that you both feel good about whatever solution we come up with together?" I love that. Yeah. So if you go to Grok the World, G-R-O-Ktheworld.com, you'll see you can buy these, , these feelings and needs cards. They're so helpful. And they also have them for adults. I use them all the time. I'll sit at the table if I'm, like, struggling with something. I just did this last week. I was struggling with a parenting thing, and I was, so, like, uncomfortable inside. I was like, "I don't know what to do." , I felt, , out of my element, and I was just like, "Okay, let's go back to the basics." And I took out the feelings deck, and I was just like, "What am I feeling?" And I laid out the feelings. And then I took out the needs deck, and I laid out the needs. I felt my whole nervous system settle. Mm. I felt myself become grounded and calm. I felt like I was back to adult Ali. And then I thought about what might have been going on for my daughter. She wasn't there. I just did it by myself. And I was like, "What might she have been feeling when she did that thing that I really didn't like?" And then I guessed her feelings. I laid out the feelings, that I thought she might be having. I laid out the needs I thought might be up for her. Mm. And then I was like, "I've got this." Mm. Like, I, I went from feeling so helpless and like, "I need my parent coach right now to live with me," to , "Oh, this is what's going on most likely for her. This is, I know, what's going on for me. , I can handle this." I ended up writing a story I just had this creative idea, like let me write a story about a character who did what she did, and then read her the story so that I can open up a conversation with her about it. I never would have thought of that. It just- Wow ... all, so that's the thing. It's like you go to the feelings and needs, and it unleashes a kind of creativity that you can't really access if you're not in your heart. Mm-hmm. It's really inspiring. I mean, I read Marshall Rosenberg's book in 2006 when a friend handed me the book. This is how a lot of people learn about NVC. It's like, kind of like The Celestine Prophecy. It just like goes from like friend to friend- ... you know? Um, and then I read it in 2006, and I was underlining almost ev- Like, I was so inspired by it, and then I started taking classes and assisting my teachers. And It's 20 years later, and I'm still just as excited about it. It's such- Mm ... a rich area that just makes life so much more interesting, and I feel so much more equipped to handle life and relationships. And I want as many people as possible to know about this because it's- Yeah very, very helpful. Yes. Just your description of having gone through that scenario, which you said you did it by yourself at the table, didn't, didn't necessarily need the other person present. Yeah. And that you felt so much more relaxed and capable. And I think about for any of us that have a challenging relationship, or you're in a season of life where things are just really busy and hectic and stressful, and how much we must be carrying around- Yeah when we don't have the words or the tools or just know how to- Connect with ourselves, share that with other people if that's where we are, to say, "This is what I feel. This is what I actually am needing in this moment." I think that is a, a big probably source of disconnect for so many of us. Not to mention then, like you said, the creativity, the time, the energy, the capacity that frees up for other things- Yeah when we don't have to be replaying that argument or feeling that resentment or that frustration or anger towards someone else. Yeah. And I just wanna say to the listener who's really smart, this is gonna be really hard because for those of us who are, like, really... I, I will put myself in this category, those of us who are very intelligent and who use our heads a lot, it's harder to get into our feelings and needs often. Mm-hmm. And it's so simple that it seems like that can't be helpful And I daily have to remember, like simple is where it's at. Mm-hmm. Simple is where it's at because the simplicity of that is where our hearts are. And when we are in our hearts, we're just s- everything is so much easier when it- Mm ... when it comes to communication, 'cause that's how we get understood. When we can express our feelings and needs, we get understood. That makes it easier to connect. That makes it easier to solve problems and meet needs. Mm. So, . It's advanced in a way. It's like emotional advancement, but it's not heady at all. And that can be really hard for a lot of people, so it's like- Yes ... so- Because I think so many of us, too, when we're so busy, we live, n- I mean- Yes ... intelligent, yes, but also we live in our to-do list, thinking about the next step, what's the next thing, the schedule. Yeah. Um, right? So we live up- Yeah ... in our heads all of the time. Yes. And I would imagine, and I've had this thought before, that connecting with myself or how I feel takes too much time, like I don't have that time. 'Cause if I- Yeah ... disconnect from the list or the calendar, I'm gonna drop something, I'm gonna forget something. But we're not talking about something that takes a ton of time, especially if you were to practice this. No. Right? Not at all. No, especially if you have the feelings and needs list. You just pull out the list and just look at it, and then two minutes later you know what you're feeling, and two minutes later... May- maybe it takes five minutes. Maybe it'll take 10 minutes if you're brand new to it. But, and yeah, the more you practice, the quicker it's gonna be for you to know what you're feeling and needing. Yeah. But the lists are so helpful because it gets us out of our thoughts and just like, "Oh, okay, just what am I feeling?" And the quicker you can get there, the quicker you're connected to yourself, and then, like I said, it's just you become more grounded, and then it's just easier to navigate it all 'cause you're clearer. Yes. What would be a first step for somebody who is interested? This is sounding like something that resonates with them. , what would you tell them to go do next? I would go to alimillercoaching.com/feelingsandneeds, download my feelings and needs list. If you have a printer easily accessible, print them out, put them where you'll see them, like maybe on the refrigerator or on your bulletin board- Yep ... and look at them three times a day, and just ask yourself, "What am I feeling in this moment? , what needs of mine are met? What needs of mine aren't met?" And just start building that vocabulary, that connection to your own feelings and needs. That's my number one recommendation. Love it. We'll put that link , and everything else in the show notes. Great. I learned a lot. I f- I feel, , more committed to some of the, the tools that I use personally and professionally, and excited to think about this in a new way, because I am in my 40s, and I am just now thinking about, in this moment, in this conversation, about needs, and how in conversation we connect when we share feelings, not thoughts. Yeah. Why was that... I need the mind blowing emoji right now. Yes. I know. So much of NVC is the mind blowing emoji. I was like, "Of course. Duh." Yeah. Yes, and I needed to hear that. Yeah. Great. Thank you so much, Ali, for sharing all of this. , I'm so excited to share the links, , with all of the listeners to go check it out and learn more about NVC, and check out your podcast. Anything else that we should know? Yeah. One of the joys of my life is connecting with other people for whom this work resonates. So if this is resonating for you and you're curious about how you can apply it in your own life, I want you to feel free to book a call with me. I offer free 45-minute calls. Whether you want coaching or not, like, we can just talk about how you can bring this into your life. , and so just go to, , alimillercoaching.com. That's my website, and there's a link there to book a call with me. Perfect. I love it. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Katelyn. Thank you so much. All right. We'll talk to you soon. Okay. Bye. Thank you for listening and as always, for being a part of this working mom community. You can find everything related to this episode in the show notes at themothernurture.com/podcast, you can also find information about how I support working moms just like you through one-on-one, and group coaching, as well as access a number of resources and articles all on my website at themothernurture.com. I will see you again next week for another episode of the podcast.
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