Episode 110: When Life Forces the Pivot: Cancer, COVID, and Starting Over

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Rachel Greiman has done a lot of things - photojournalism, family photography, copywriting, and now? She owns a fragrance boutique in Denver called Ode. And no, none of that was planned.

In this episode, I'm sitting down with one of my favorite internet friends to talk about what it actually looks like to blow up a successful business and start something completely new in the middle of absolute chaos. We're talking COVID with a newborn, her son's leukemia diagnosis, two-plus years of treatment, and somehow, on the other side of all of it, opening a brick-and-mortar shop.

What I love most about this conversation is that Rachel isn't selling you a highlight reel. She talks honestly about ADHD as a superpower and a liability, the intellectual guilt of being a working mom, why she stopped waiting to call herself an expert, and the mantra that changed how she approaches every new venture.

Whether you've been sitting on a big idea or you're just trying to figure out how to stop white-knuckling every decision, there's something for you in this episode.

Find Rachel at @odetoshop or odetoperfume.com, and follow her personally at @rachelgreiman.

Links and resources mentioned in this episode:

  • You are listening to the Life Coach for Working Moms podcast, the show where we are talking about what it actually takes to make life work as a working mom. I'm your host, Katelyn Denning, a full time working mom of three and a certified life and executive coach. I'm so glad you're here and I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Hello, hello. Welcome back to another episode of the podcast. I have a super fun interview for you this week. I cannot wait for you to listen. Rachel Greiman is an internet friend of mine. I know that maybe sounds strange, but when you are a business owner, especially in the online space, these things happen. We met years ago. We get into a little bit of our origin story. But Rachel is, first of all, so funny. She is so fun to talk with. I love following her online. Not only does she keep things super real and relatable, but I just always smile or chuckle or laugh at her observations and musings. So you're gonna love her in general. But she has had such a fascinating career over the years, and as we get into our conversation today, you'll hear how massive life changes at different stages of her life have been the catalyst for the professional changes that she's made, which is so interesting to think about, what are the steps along our journey that maybe we didn't anticipate or wouldn't have chosen for ourselves if we had been able to, but that were influenced by the broader circumstances that were happening in our lives? And today, Rachel is actually a brick-and-mortar shop owner in Denver. She owns Ode to Perfume, a boutique fragrance shop, which someday I know I'm gonna get out there and visit it in person, but for now I get to watch everything that they do and promote online, and so can you. So regardless of whether you are a business owner or aspire to be one, Rachel's story and perspective on career changes, on parenting, on time for yourself, on what it's like to manage all of the roles that she does as a working mom with, as she says, raging ADHD, there is definitely something here in this conversation. And if nothing else, I know it's gonna make you smile whenever you're listening to this. So with that, please enjoy Rachel and this episode  Hi, Rachel. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. It's so good to see you again. It's so good to see you. So we were just trying to dig back into our memories to remember where we first got connected. Mm. Because I would call Rachel, , an internet friend. Yes. We've actually never met in real life. And it's crazy how many of them both of us probably have. Yes. Like, I think doing business online, it's like, "Oh, my dear friend." Have I met her in person? No. Does she know some of my deepest, darkest secrets? Yes. Exactly. Yeah, it is something to online business, but we were trying to remember. We're gonna gather more information about how it was when we first came to be. It was definitely something about trying to be on our phones less during COVID. It was. It was. It was a group of four or five of us women, moms, working from home with no childcare. Yes. And we were just on our phones doom scrolling constantly. So there was some type of accountability there. I do not know how that group got formed, but I know we met- But the rest is history ... online. Yep. So yeah. Exactly. So, let's see. In 2020, I had a one, three, and five-year-old working from home. Gosh, yes, yes. Full-time job and my coaching practice. Mm-hmm. And how old were your... My daughter had just turned two, and I had a newborn. Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. June of 2020 he was born. Yeah. So, and we lost our nanny. So my husband and I were both working full-time with a two-year-old, two under two. Oh. And it was insane. It was. I know. Yeah. We don't, we don't need to go there. I really don't want to go there. No, it's like, it's like a trauma, a blank space in my brain. 100%, yeah. So anyway, then, then we've kind of stayed in each other's orbit. Mm-hmm. I love... You are, like, one of my favorite follows on Instagram. Oh, you're so nice to me. You've gone through a lot of changes. Yeah, yeah. And so I wanna get into all of that in the podcast, but could you just give us a basic introduction, what you do now in present day- Yeah where you are located, your kids, anything else that you think would be fun to share? Yeah, I mean, I think like a lot of online business owners, which I guess I'm not anymore, , I have a meandering path to where I'm at now. I was a photojournalism major in college, which sounds crazy to talk about, because I literally started college 21 years ago. Like, that feels, like, ridiculous to put out there on my resume. But I honestly, I did photojournalism for the next 15 years, essentially, and I wrote and photographed for nonprofits for a long time. And then I pivoted into my own photography business, where I photographed families in, like, a photojournalism style. And then I pivoted into writing copy for photographers' websites, and that was, , my first very successful endeavor, and I did that for almost 10 years. And then I sold that business in 2024, and I pivoted big time into what I'm doing now, which is I own a brick-and-mortar fragrance boutique. I know that none of those things sound related, but I have raging ADHD. And though it looks different for a lot of people, I consider it to be a superpower. And it lets me hyper-fixate on things in a really, , focused way. And so when I decide that I want to do something, I can do it really quickly. Does everything else in my life fall apart a little bit because of the ADHD? Yes. But I have grown to love and accept that part of myself, and embrace it, because it lets me do really cool things. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay, so you own Ode. Uh-huh. O-D-E. Uh-huh. We'll put all the links in the show notes- Yeah ... so people can go snoop and- ... see what this beautiful shop looks like. And you have two kids who are- Yes no longer two and a newborn. No, thank God. They're seven and five. My son is in kindergarten, so they're out of my house. Okay, okay, so school-aged kids now. Yes, yes. And you have a partner that maybe helps a little bit when- Yes, a ton ... everything else falls apart and you're hyper-fixated on whatever the thing is. Yep, 1000%. And when I started Ode, I told him, I was like, "It's gonna suck for, like, six months to a year. I'm not gonna be here on the weekends." I mean, it's a retail store. I don't know what I was thinking. , it's so much work. It is more work than anything I've ever done in my entire life. And I told him that I wanted to do this, and all he did was, like, sigh, and be like, "All right. Okay." "Whatever you want." Like, he is the most supportive person ever. He just looked at me and said, "I will do whatever you need. I will never-" work there as an employee. Okay. Like, I will never fill in for you. So that's a problem you have to solve on your own. Okay. But as far as, like, childcare and him being responsible for the kids, he was and is, continues to be fantastic. Wow. I love that. Yeah. Okay, so it's more work than anything you've ever done before. Yes. So what do your weeks look like? , I mean- you're here recording with me on a- Yeah ... Wednesday morning from- Yep ... your home? Yep. I'm at the shop almost every single day. Mm. Sometimes it's for five minutes, because boundaries, you know, on days that I'm, like, trying to be present with my kids. We have six employees now, so- Wow ... I'm trying really hard to not work behind the counter every day. , but the reason I say it's so much work is because there's, I could work for seven days straight and still not be done. Yep. And there's just never, it's never-ending. And I thought online, the emails were a lot. It's nothing compared to the emailing that I have to do now. Wow. So my days look very, very different depending on the day of the week. We're closed on Mondays and Tuesdays, so that's actually the day that I'm in the shop the most, because I can get the most done, 'cause no one's coming in. And I can reorganize things, do inventory, ship out online orders. I meet with my manager to do content. And , those are my, , busy work days, are Mondays and Tuesdays. Now I also have therapy on Tuesdays. Like, I try to also fit in, , the errands that I don't get to do on the weekends. Mm. On the weekends now I'm trying to work less, so I'll maybe work half a day behind the counter, which is great. , sometimes a full day if people are out of town. But my weekends are pretty much mine again, which is great, 'cause they were not at all mine for- Like nine months. Yeah. And then I like to be in the shop when other people are working, because then I can do what I need to do, but also participate in what's happening and hear what customers are saying. Mm. So yeah, I'm just still there all the time. But it's at my happy place. It's not stressful. Like going there, I feel like I can like breathe a sigh of relief. It's not like, "Ugh, I have to go to the shop." Mm. It's also only 12 minutes away, and it's close to a lot of the other errands that I would naturally run in my day-to-day, so. Yeah. And then I try to be home by 5:00 to get the kids from aftercare. Okay. Either I pick them up or my husband does, and then we have evenings together, which is really, really nice. Yeah. Okay. So you're working while they're at school. Yes. Getting them out the door in the morning, I assume, is that- Yes ... is that your responsibility? Yeah. It's both of us. Okay. We try really hard to both be here in the mornings when they wake up, because we both work full-time, and because we decided to put them in aftercare, we don't get them till 5:00 PM, and that's a long day for a five-year-old. Like, my son is away from us from 8:10 in the morning until 5:00. And I know that's normal, , but because we have been with him for five years until he went to kindergarten, it was a big adjustment, and it continues to be an adjustment for him. So we try to alleviate that as much as possible by both being here in the morning and at night. Yeah. 'Cause it's like 5:00 to 7:30 is our window in the evening with them, and they wake up at 7:00 and we leave by 8:00. So we have three and a half hours a day to really be present with them. And I am not always good at this, because I feel like I'm on my phone a lot still, and I'm like, you know, still answering emails and stuff. So I'm not perfect at it by any stretch, and I'm trying to be better, but we do try to both be around. Yeah, yeah. Kindergarten, I feel like, is a much bigger transition than anyone warned me about. I don't know- Oh, really? ... if that was your experience, and, and maybe it was just the kid or whatever, but. Right, right. Yeah. E- especially with my youngest, who's also a boy, it, it took us- Oh, is there- ... almost our whole school year- Yeah ... to, like, get into a rhythm. Now, now he's- Yeah ... doing great in first grade, but I was like, wow, kindergarten has been for us the hardest. And we did daycare and, you know, all the things before. Right, right. We did too, yeah. I was like, "This is really hard." It, it, well, it has been. I think youngest boy is a key piece of that- Interesting ... for both of us. There's just something about it. Like, and I only have two, but, , I have an oldest daughter, so she's just like, "We're doing this." Yeah. She's mean about it, but she does it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So it sounds like between , you and your husband, there's a fair bit of- sharing of responsibilities and, you know- Mm-hmm ... tag teaming or both doing things. You've got your six employees at the shop. Yeah. Do you have other help that comes in? Like, you know, is it just the two of you? Or , what is that like? It's just the two of us for now. Yeah. Yeah. We have, we are very, very lucky to live in a neighborhood in Denver where there's a lot of teenage girls. Oh. And so we have three babysitters literally next door, like on either side of us. Amazing. So that is magical. So we have a lot of help in that way, like one-off. If, like I can pay one to walk the dog if I need to. I mean, he's usually at the shop with me. They drive now, so like they're gonna help us this summer with summer camp, transportation, because, you know, they end at like 2:00 or 3:00. Yes. As all working moms know, the bane- Yes ... of our existence is summer. Will they hang with them, like what, what you're used to with aftercare now? Will you keep the sitters until y- your end of workday or? Oh, yeah. I will, I am going to try my best to spend more time with the kids and less time at the shop this summer. Mm-hmm. Just because they're still little, and they still wanna be with me, and I'm like, I maybe have one summer of that left with my daughter. Mm-hmm. And so even though it's hard, and it's going to make my life harder overall and require a lot more planning on my part, I'm really trying to be the one that's with her. That said, we have a lot of emergency help, and one-off help when we need it. I do have a house cleaner that comes every other week, but that's it. Okay. And I, it shows, that we don't have more help. You know? How, what do you mean? Like tell, what is, what does, what does that mean? I mean, my kids eat nuggets one night a week, you know? Yes. And pizza on Fridays. Like- Yes ... there are a lot of things that I think I would like to do better. Mm. I am not going to hold myself to that standard when we're not bringing in other people to help us. And because of the neighborhood that we live in, we are very house poor. So even though my husband and I both work full-time, and in my opinion make decent money, we're never gonna make enough to have like a house manager. Not in Denver. It's- Mm ... we live in a part of town that e- everything is just so expensive. Mm. And we're happy to do it, and we'll continue to do it. We long ago prioritized the location of where we live over having more hands. Mm. You made a big move. Yeah. Well, my husband's from here. Okay. So his, , parents do help if we need them. Okay. But they're not close, so it's not like a they're gonna pop in on a Tuesday and help. Gotcha. It's more like, "Can you take them this day two months from now?" You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. But they're great, and they help when we ask. , but we lived here in Denver for eight years, and then we moved back to Philly where I'm from- For two years. And the first year was 2019, and we loved it. We were looking for property. And then the second year was 2020, and everything was miserable and terrible because we had a newborn during COVID. Mm-hmm. And so my husband got a random job offer back here in Denver, and so we took it, and we moved back across the country. Oh, I didn't- So- ... know it was a job offer. Yeah. So we've been back since 2021. Yeah. So we've been here for five years. Okay. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so you started to share some of this in your intro, but the changes that you have made- Yeah professionally through the years to someone like me, who I would describe myself as risk-averse. Yeah. I don't like big disruptions. If I'm gonna make a change, like for me, becoming an entrepreneur- Yeah, it was like super stressful ... was very calculated. Yeah. And it was years in the making, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And had to tell myself regularly, "You're not gonna die. It's going to be okay. You can get another job." Right, right, right. I look at what you have done, and I... You know, what's the like screaming face emoji? Yeah. I'm, I'm like, aah. Yeah. How do you do that? I think a lot of people are like that. I think a lot of people are like, "What are you doing?" And but like I have to say, it's all comes down to wiring. I am wired to be this way fundamentally. Okay, okay. Like you look at my Enneagram, my Myers-Briggs, my astrology, my human design. Every single typing system will tell you that I have strong impulse control and a radical overconfidence in what I can accomplish. I love it. Like, and it's serves me well, and it shoots me in the foot all the time. You know? Mm-hmm. You gotta, you gotta take the good with the bad. But I have just learned to kind of embrace it. And I will say like , my life has also required a lot of change, whether I wanted to or not. Mm. And I think embracing that has only made it easier and richer- Yeah ... because I a- also think like the chaos, I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about this too. My son had leukemia. He's doing great now, but he was in treatment, , from 2022 until the end of, I can... '24. Yeah. Yes, it was like a little bit more than two years that he was in treatment. Yeah. And so I started the process of selling my copywriting business when he first got sick. Mm. Because I was like, "I cannot write websites from the hospital. I can't do this. I can't make a dumb reel from the hospital room." It was like eating away at my soul. Mm. And COVID, first of all- Yeah ... He was born in June of 2020. Yeah. So we had two years of absolute mayhem. trying to configure a work schedule for the two of us. That required so much change and so much flexibility, way more than I wanted to be. I did not wanna be that flexible and adaptable. There are certain things about that time period that were worse than cancer, because I think we were all collectively going through it, so every single person in my life was strapped. Yeah. You know? , we couldn't lean on each other, because we all had our own chaos in our homes. Mm. And it was like we were just all alone. We were alone trying to figure this out, and adapting our businesses, and trying to encourage our clients, and trying to be a brave face for everyone, while completely melting down inside our houses. Yes. I mean, I don't wanna speak for everyone else, but that's how it felt to me. Yeah. And so that was chaotic, and that required some really big pivots on my part within my business to accommodate what my clients, photographers, were going through. So that was, like, an adaptable, flexible thing, and it just continued and continued. You know, we were still dealing with COVID until 2022 with daycare. Like, we would- Right ... there would be a case, and it would shut down for 10 days. Yeah. So you have kids in your house for 10 days. So we had two years nonstop of our kids just being home. And then, they both went to daycare full time in September of 2022, and it was the best two months of my life as a mom. Yeah. I mean, I cried every day tears of happiness. Not that I wasn't with my kids, but that they were safe and I could decide what to do with my day. It was amazing. And then exactly two months later, my son got diagnosed with cancer, so there started a whole other chapter of over two years of me being with him. You know, he would go to school here and there when he was healthy enough, but it was never guaranteed. I never knew. Yeah. If he spiked a fever, we could be in the hospital for five weeks, and that happened multiple times. It was amounts of flexibility that I didn't know a human could pos- possess between my husband and I. Wow. And so I think that literal four and a half year period of not having a choice, of being flexible and adaptable and making change, I didn't have the luxury of being stressed about it, because it was like, "Well, I just have to do this." And some might say that in that chaos you would choose something consistent. But I think for me- I got obsessed with fragrance while my son was sick. Mm. And- How? Like, what, how could you- TikTok ... how did that start? TikTok. Okay. TikTok. Because I was disassociating. Of course. 'Cause we'd be in the hospital for weeks at a time, and I was just scrolling, you know? Yeah. I was just like, "This is my coping mechanism. I'm gonna scroll on this dumb app." And all these ethereal fragrance girlies were talking about, how this perfume changed their life, and I was like, "I could use some of that." So I just got really obsessed with it. And then his second year of treatment, he wasn't as sick. I traveled a lot. I spoke at copywriting conferences while I was priming the business to sell. And I would go to these perfume boutiques when I would travel, and I would buy a bottle to, , signify the trip and remember- Mm ... , that time in my life. And somewhere along the way, I was like, "Somebody should do this in Denver. I don't know why we don't have this in Denver. " Then when I sold my business in September of 2024, I knew my son was finishing treatment in December, so I was like, "Oh, cool. I finally sold it, and now I've got three months to spend with him, and then he's going to school full time in January, , to daycare." So in that moment, when I sold the business, I knew I was gonna do a boutique. Because I think when you have any type of unplanned chaos in your life, like for us it was cancer, it was like, "I need to do this, or I'm never going to live again." Like- Mm ... my son's leukemia is really, really rare, and so he has a very high rate of relapse, which has gone down significantly because we hit the one-year mark, which is fantastic. But I remember his oncologist said to me, "If you live your life waiting for a relapse, you're never gonna do anything." Yeah. And that meant so much to me in that moment, and it even makes me emotional now to think about. But, like, starting the boutique was like, it was so crazy. It was so dumb. It does not make any logical sense. But it was kind of like, "I have to do this so urgently, and I have to do it right now, or I'm never gonna do anything like this again, because something horrible could happen again." And I think in my mind, I was like, "We had COVID and cancer. Nothing's gonna happen right away." Like, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna be a while from now. So, like, let's take the peace and, , run toward it, if that makes sense. Yeah. So sorry. I did not know I was gonna get emotional about this. I mean- Ugh. I Tell, all my clients know this. I love a good cry. And I- Yeah ... I mean- I do not. Oh. I do not do well with emotions. Oh. But it's true. It's genuine. It's like- Yes. Absolutely ... it was such a big pivot. But I, all of that to say, I feel like I do thrive in chaos, and I wanted to pick the chaos, if that makes sense. Mm. It felt like a control thing. Mm. Like, everyone else has chosen the chaos that comes at me for the last five years. I'm gonna pick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I see this play out so often. , COVID is one example, cancer diagnosis. I've had a number of clients recently who've been affected by all of the layoffs that are happening- Yeah, yeah ... across corporate America, right? You have these moments that you don't choose. Right. And in that time, what is going to be your choice? Right. Right. And you don't get to pick so many things in your day, so all you get to pick is your reaction and how you handle something, and your next step. All you get to pick- Yes ... is your next step. That's really it. And so I guess for my next step, I was just like, " go big or go home. Let's do this." Let's do it. Yeah. How do you go from seeing, TikTok, people talking about- Yeah ... fragrance, buying a few bottles, and then becoming what I imagine you need to feel, like, somewhat educated or an- Yeah expert on the topic to order that? I work with so many women who, I think this is probably related to control, do not enjoy the feeling of not knowing. Right, right. Right? I, I mean- And not being an expert. It's like, I, I work with driven, type A, women- Mm-hmm who, yeah, we wanna know. Yeah. We wanna feel like we know what the next step is, and we wanna have it figured out, and we wanna be organized about it. And I just imagine learning something like this. I mean, you had to feel, I would assume, like a total newbie. Oh, to- 1,000%. My- How do you, like, how do you live in that space? Yeah. My mantra is, "A dumber man would do it." All the time. So true. About anything I decide to do. Anything. And no one would question him. Mm. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, if a man dumber than me would attempt this, and has and does all the time, why wouldn't I try? Mm. Like, I am a mom who has figured out, I have made so many decisions in the past five years. There's no reason I can't make a decision about perfume. Mm. It's just not that deep, and of course, I think it's just being honest with people. , I never pretended to know more than I did. Even on social media when I was building the shop, it was like, "I am learning this in real time. I did not know what this word meant in perfume ingredients, and I looked it up and I found out today." Like, I think- So refreshing. Yeah. I think people like to know that you don't know anything. And eventually you do. You start to know things. Mm. , and that's the beauty of being hyper-fixated on something. You can learn stuff real quick. Yeah. And I did take a couple classes, 'cause I wanted to be able to speak about things intelligently. But at the same time, I think with copywriting, my first business, I wanted to be the expert before I ever claimed anything, and I wanted to have these certain weird milestones hit in my head before I would claim myself as anything. And then at some point, I just tripped over a line where it was like, no, I am the expert. There's literally not another person in the entire world who has written this many photography websites. , I can say that, like, but that's what it took to call myself an expert. Mm. What an absurd benchmark. You know? Yeah. , that might not be true anymore, because there are other people who have done it, but when I tell you I knew that that was a fact about myself, It was like finally something tripped in my brain of like, oh, I don't need to wait next time. , I don't need to wait until I've reached this, , arbitrary goal that nobody else has set for me except for myself. , so yeah. I think that's how. And I think it just is getting really comfortable with being honest with people. Like, I have nothing to prove to anyone. , you either wanna buy a bottle of perfume or not. It's not that deep. Also, though, I think you could know this too, as a coach, people are trusting you so much in a service-based business. Mm-hmm. , people would hand us thousands and thousands of dollars to write their website, and it wasn't just write me words, it was change my business and change my life, please. Yeah. It's a lot of pressure. Yeah. It's a lot of pressure. So to go to a model where it's like, that's 120 bucks, I do not care if you buy it or not, it was so refreshing. Yeah. And it was so much less pressure on me as a person. And I didn't make them. I'm not making these perfumes. I'm selling other people's beautiful artwork. Mm. So that also I think was a very necessary pivot for my mental health. Mm. I'm too invested in people's success to do that kind of service-based thing. Mm. At least I was then. I might be able to again, but- Yeah ... for now, it's, , such a nice brain break. Yeah. Can I share, I don't know if I've talked about this on the podcast before. Some of my closest clients know this, so I'm a big reader. Mm-hmm. I love to read. Yeah. And I read lots of genres, but romance is at the top of my list. Yeah. And- Why wouldn't it be? Like, I know. I mean, I was talking to a friend about this the other day. It's like I think so hard, I make so many decisions, like you said, all day long. When I go to pick up a book at the end of the night, I don't want a textbook. I want to know- No ... that there's a happy ending, and- Yeah ... and that's fine, and call it what you will. But romance bookstores, if you don't know, we're booming, and, and these- Up the wazoo ... there are, but- Huge. Yeah. One opened in Denver. They're huge. Yes. Well, ... Similar to your thought, like why doesn't this exist in Denver? I was like, "Why doesn't Cincinnati have a romance bookstore?" Yeah. I could, do that. Yeah. I am so knowledgeable. Yeah. I know all of that, and I took a lot of the steps, and this is something that I coach my clients on too. I looked at some retail spaces. Yeah. I put together a budget for the first- Yeah few years, and what would it look like, and I talked to people, and I joined a Facebook group for indie bookstore owners, and all- Wow ... of these things, and ultimately decided it was not what I wanted to do, but I don't regret the time that I put into it. Right. And I think the number one reason is what you kind of led with as a retail shop owner. I was afraid I would just spend my entire life- Life there ... there. Yeah. But I wouldn't, wouldn't do- And you would ... anything else. You would. And I- And now there's another one that's opened in Cincinnati, and- Yeah ... and that's great and fine. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the thing with the perfume shop. I knew someone else was gonna do it. It's the same exact- Right ... thing as a, like ours is called The Spicy Librarian- Yeah ... our bookshop in Denver. Yeah. And- I felt that urgency. I was like- Yeah ... "It's now- Exactly ... or someone else is coming right on my heels." Exactly, exactly. So I think that's also what helped me make such a big pivot so quickly. Yeah. It wasn't that I'm, like addicted to that much madness. It was also, like I need to do this now and get it up and running quickly. Done is so much better than perfect in that scenario. Yeah. I'm glad you didn't for your own sake. I, I guess what has me have a moment here of regret listening to your story is I, I can appreciate selling a product like that- Yeah a $20 book, $120- Yes .. a bottle of perfume, that- Mm-hmm ... there would be less attachment or personal investment in that. It's why- Yeah ... I always say my backup plan is to go work at Trader Joe's because- Yes ... I think that would be amazing. Right. I could be really good at Trader Joe's. Yes. Oh, you would. You'd be great. But then it wouldn't provide the same level of fulfillment either. Totally. And also, I have to say, I don't want you to regret it because your kids are older than mine. We are just getting into extracurriculars, so we might have basketball on a Saturday morning. That's it. Mm-hmm. You know? Like- Yeah ... I am in this perfect moment to do something this, labor-intensive. Where I have to be physically present. And you build it with what could be coming for you in the next years of parenting with the staff and- Yes ... learning your boundaries. It's maybe more- Mm-hmm ... established, so yes, thank you for saying that. I- It's a different story with older kids. I- I have something every night of the week, and we are out- Yeah of the house almost all day- Exactly ... Saturday and Sunday. Exactly. And so I'm not there yet. I'm going to be soon, so I'm already th- right now thinking about what it's gonna look like next summer. Mm-hmm. Because I need to prep my staff and my- Yeah ... systems for that. Yes. And I need to remove myself from the equation if I'm ever gonna have a life. So I am aware of that, but I also think, , it would've been so much harder if my kids were older. Mm. Yeah. That's interesting. But I- Yeah ... I guess all this to say, I think there is value in you are interested in something, you're curious, you- Mm-hmm ... see something on TikTok, following those curiosities- Yeah and exploring them, and I think that's a step that a lot of people miss- Mm-hmm ... of - how can I or what could I do to try this on or act- Right ... as if- Right ... I'm doing this thing- Yeah ... to find my answer. For you it was, "Yes, I'm gonna do it." For me it was, "No, I'm not." Yeah. But I feel so much more confident in that decision because I did the- 'Cause you investigated research. I saw the spaces. I- Yes ... talked to people, and then I was like, "Oh, crap, this is- Yeah ... way more than I thought of just- Right. Right ... like, being a shop girl." Right. Exactly. And everybody wants to be a shop girl. , we all did growing up. Everybody. I still do. I love being a shop girl. It's so fun. I mean- But it's so much more work than I thought. So much more. I mean, what was it Oh, You've Got Mail. Yeah, exactly. What's her name? Exactly. We all, we all wanna run that. Meg Ryan was, Kathleen Kelly. Kathleen Kelly. Kathleen Kelly. We all want a bouquet of sharpened pencils- Exactly ... from the drawing pencil store. Exactly. But similarly to you, I'm sure in your business, , you solve problems. Like, all we do as entrepreneurs, it does not matter what area you're in, what you sell- We are all just solving problems and fixing things and optimizing systems. That's all owning a business is. And if anybody tries to tell you different, they are crazy, because I have owned three of them, and all it is is figuring stuff out. I love to figure stuff out. Like, yes, am I passionate about perfume right now? Absolutely. Was I passionate about photography and copywriting? 100%. But I would say it was secondary to the electricity I feel when I get to do things differently than someone else, and I solve the problem better than they did. Yeah. So I think for me, it, it sounds like a huge change when I verbalize it, but at the same time, it's using the exact same part of my brain. Yeah. And that's what I'm addicted to. That's what's fun. Yes. And you said something earlier that really resonated with me about the decisions that you make. Like, it's really just a series of decisions- Mm-hmm ... or problem-solving, and I think that's such a helpful perspective, because we do that all day long with our kids, right? It's just a series- Oh, yes ... of decisions. Do I give them the Goldfish, or do I make them wait until dinner, right? Right. Do we do this first or that next? Do I engage in this fight that they're trying to have, or do I take a deep breath and ignore it? Right. Right. We... I mean, we do that in our work, whether, we're running a business or we're employed somewhere. And I think so often we just get caught up in stories that we tell ourselves about the things, and it's like, really, if we boil almost anything down, it's just you have a choice. Yeah. There's a decision to be made here. There's a problem to be solved, and these are the options, and let's just pick one. Right. And it doesn't really matter. Most things are changeable. Most things are changeable. And I think that the people who get stuck in fear- Mm ... and they get paralyzed by things in their business or even at home with kids, yes, their lives are an accumulation of our decisions, but this one specific one is not worth me having a mental breakdown about. Mm. Like, I can come back and do better tomorrow, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's like that in business too. Yeah. Yeah. Does this approach that you have of, wanting to solve these problems or just your curiosity and your willingness to learn and figure things out, like, how does that show up for you in parenting? Does it? Ooh, that's a really good question. I have very spirited children. I have two Geminis, and I am a Gemini, so a lot of chatter, a lot of activity- Wow ... in our house. And they both show signs of ADHD, which again, I talk about very positively because I want them to have good associations with it. Mm. , but I see the advantages in them already, like w- how it's gonna serve them individually, and I see the challenges that they are each gonna have because their brains are different than the general public. And so I think for me, I am very curious about learning the way they interact with the world, and their assumptions about themselves and about other people, and helping them talk about that and investigate that. Why do you think that? Where did that come from? , I think I am most curious about who they are as people. I don't really care about the sports they play or their interests. I mean, I pretend to like Pokemon for my son because he really cares about that. But I am finding that, , he cares about Pokemon because it's something for him to do with his friends. ... He doesn't know anything about Pokemon, but he's so fixated on it because he really likes to talk to Quincy and Henry at school about the cards that he has. And so it's seeing what lights them up as people, and kinda where their personalities are going. That's probably where I'm most curious, and what I pay attention to best. Mm. I'm really hard on myself as a mom because I think a lot of working moms are. I am not special or unique in this way. Yeah. But I feel really guilty for being away so much. Mm. I think that's intellectual guilt, not like soul guilt, if that makes sense. Mm. Mm-hmm. Like, my brain tells me to feel guilty, but actually I'm like, "No, I'm showing them that, , you can work really hard at something and build something really cool." That's how I actually feel, but in my brain I have, , mental guilt. So there's a lot of things that I would say that I am not curious enough about, about them, but the one thing that I know I can hang my hat on is, like, I'm gonna know who they are, and I'm gonna know how they got that way. Yeah. Because that's my job. Yeah. Questions, like just asking more questions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and better questions. I know. , my daughter spots a shitty question five miles away , she will not tolerate me asking, "How was your day?" Mm-hmm. And it's like, that is tiring as a parent. You know? To, like- What do you ask at the end of the day? Lately when I pick them up, I've been trying to ask them really specific things, like, "What was funny about your day?" , "What made you laugh today?" Or, , "What was annoying?" 'Cause, it's really easy for them to talk about the bad stuff. Hmm. But I, I just told them this last night, literally for the first time. I said, "Okay, if you're gonna talk about the annoying stuff and the frustrating stuff, we've gotta talk about some good stuff, too." Yeah. Like, you have to talk to me about what went well. Mm-hmm. And they did not like that. But at the same time, it's like, I cannot ask, "How was your day?" I can't. They will both be like, "Fine," and , it actually puts them in a bad mood. Mm. And so I have learned I have to be the adult. I have to be creative. If I am going to make sure that talking is a part of our core family values, it's my job to make sure that happens. Mm. Yeah. I like to challenge myself when I think about questions, and this just comes from coach training- Mm-hmm really. Mm-hmm. Like, more than half of my job- I bet you're great at it ... all of my job is questions. Yeah. And, and it is so true that when we start a question with the word how, like, "How was your day?" Mm-hmm. "How are you feeling?" They feel generic. Yeah, absolutely. And, and I love that your daughter can, , spot that- Mm and is angered by- Yeah ... a question that starts in that way. Like, how dare you waste my time with such a- Yeah ... benign thing. That's how it feels when she looks at me. Yeah, yeah. If you try swapping what for how- Mm ... it just naturally makes the question more specific, more curious. Yeah. Like, what about your day was frustrating? Yeah. Or what about your day was funny? Or what about that is important to you? Or- Mm ... , what do you think was happening there? Or what are you feeling right now? Mm-hmm. Not how are you feeling. That's such a good point. What are you feeling? That's, like, a great parenting tip, too. Yes. It's also great at work, , if you manage a team or you have colleagues. Yeah. Asking more questions. Treat them like children. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. But it's true. Your partner. Just asking more questions in general, and then, like you said, making them more pointed or creative or curious. And you could just start by swapping the first word out- Yeah ... to be what. That's so smart. Hmm. So my selfishly curious question of you- Yeah ... because I, I struggle with this myself, when you do work that you are interested in that you could explore and get consumed by, and then you have the work itself, and then you have kids and a home, do you have other things that you do or are interested in that supplements that? Yeah, that's a good question. I also like to read a lot. Hmm. I go through seasons, though. Okay. I'll be, like, a voracious reader for, like, six months, and then I won't touch a book for three. And, but it's a goal. Like, if I'm not reading, I'm thinking about that I'm not reading. Mm-hmm. Like, I w- I really like it as a habit in my life. Yeah. So I try to read. I scroll social media way too much. Hmm. It is, like, absolutely how I decompress before I go to sleep- Hmm ... which I don't love about myself- Hmm ... but is the truth. Yeah. I will be truthful. Yeah. I'm trying to think about what else I do for fun. I mean, I'm, like, best friends with all my neighbors. Hmm. So it's really convenient that, like, when we do get home at 5:00, they're out with all their kids, and so our kids go play with them, and I just hang out with my neighbors on a stoop and drink wine. Yeah. , that's pretty magical. That is so magical. So- We have that too. It's the best. , if I can encourage anybody to prioritize one thing when they buy a house, it's, , live next door to someone you love. Yes, yeah. So that honestly, not that that's a hobby, but it is such an important part of my life. Mm-hmm. If I didn't have that, I think I would feel really lonely- Yeah , in this season, because I'm so focused. But the fact that it's an easy walk across the street for 30 minutes- Yes ... fill up my cup, chat, catch up, come back home. You know, it's not disruptive to the family unit. It's just adding to our life. So that's- Hmm ... been really, really important. We moved to this house three years ago right after my son was diagnosed, and it was the best decision I think we've ever made as a family. Hmm. I love when you can look back- Yeah ... on decisions like that and be like, hey- And, like, we wouldn't know it. Like, we didn't make it on purpose, you know? Yeah. Like, we didn't know that we would become best friends with all of our neighbors. Right. But it, I mean, it has changed so much for us in a good way. I think neighborhoods have a vibe. Yeah. And, and so even if you can't when you're looking for your next place to live know exactly who's living next door- Yeah ... and whether you're gonna hit it off or not, I think you find those neighborhoods that have the vibe- Mm-hmm ... that you want, and then you trust- Yeah that the people are gonna be there, and that's- Yeah ... 100% our experience too. Yeah. And because our neighborhood is where our kids go to school too, every street is like this. I could go three streets down and find more friends that are all hanging out on their stoop. Like, it's, you're- Yes 1,000% right. It's just the way it is. . Yeah, and when you think about time and all that, we're managing with work , and life, it is also a time-saver to have- Oh, my gosh ... that, right, that, that social piece. That doesn't mean I have to drive 30 minutes across town or schedule this thing a month in advance. I, I do that for certain friends, and I'm- Mm-hmm ... happy to prioritize that, but it is so easy to just- But you wouldn't make that friend now. Yeah. That's that far away. That's so true. Like, I will prioritize friends that I've had- That's so true ... for that. I would never make a friend that lives 20 minutes away. Not because- Yeah ... they're not the coolest person ever. There are probably a lot of people that are amazing 20 minutes from me. I, I can't. I know. W- what was it last summer? My middle child, my daughter, made this great friend at a summer camp, but- Mm ... my kids bop around to different camps, so it's not- Yeah, yeah the same one all summer. Right, same. This was an , art camp, and she met this super cool friend. And of course they, , tried to remember their mom's phone numbers to swap those at some point. And so at the final art show on the Friday at the end of the camp, the woman was like, "Oh, it sounds like they wanna get together." And she handed me her number and I said, "Oh, where do you guys live?" And she mentioned this neighborhood that is literally 30 to 35 minutes from ours, and I was like, "Oh, thanks." And then I thought to my- Mm ... "We're never gonna see them again." Right, and she thought the same thing. Probably. Like, you're locking eyes like, "I'm glad we reached an understanding here." Right. Hopefully they meet back up in high school. Yeah. Ex- Well, probably not- Yeah ... honestly. Exactly, exactly. All right. So, so many things that I could continue asking you about, but can we just geek out on- Yeah ... fragrance for the last- Yeah ... couple of minutes? Like- Yeah ... What is your absolute favorite thing about walking into that shop? What is it- Yeah ... that fragrance you think so far in your business journey does- Yeah ... for, I wanna say women, but I mean- Yeah ... anyone. Anyone, yeah. Really. , like, what, why does it matter? What about fragrance is important? Look at me using a what- Yeah, yeah ... based question. I love it. , I think that, this is something I say to a lot to clients or customers, that, there's only so much we can control about how other people perceive us. Mm-hmm. And it's all physical. It's what we wear, it's what we look like, it's the glasses we put on, it's the jewelry, it's how we style our hair. , you only control so much of what somebody else thinks about you, and I think fragrance is, , one more layer of how we control what people think about us. Mm-hmm. And now we can't control what they internalize because of that smell, but it says something about us. It says something about who I am. Mm-hmm. And I think that is really important to a lot of people, to feel like an individual and feel like themselves, and to smell like themselves. That is the emotional answer. The scientific answer is that with the rise in the use of GLP-1s, there has been a massive rise in the purchasing and consumerism of fragrance. Interesting. I don't know if it's, like, correlation without causation. I don't know that it's been proven yet. But my understanding of it from my friends who are on GLP-1s is that there's not a lot of satiety anymore in your life if you're, , on semaglutides. Because- the satisfaction that you would get from eating and the dopamine and serotonin that you would get from a really good meal is really limited because your body doesn't crave it anymore. Those receptors are kind of blocked. I am not doing a good job of explaining this, but you get what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. And I think fragrance is a way to set off those same- Mm ... pieces of dopamine and serotonin that food used to. Interesting. And it's satisfying. It's satisfying to collect and curate and, , have something that you're obsessed with. Yeah. And as somebody who is also obsessed with food- Yeah ... like I can understand if that went away, like food consumes so much of my thought for better or worse, you know? Mm-hmm. It means I'm always gonna find the right restaurant, but also I think it wastes a lot of my time and energy deciding. It's a- you know, another one of those decisions. I think I would wanna replace that. Mm. Those thoughts and motivation with something else that was exciting. Food is exciting to me, and I think food is not very exciting if you're on a semaglutide. Interesting. And so fragrance is one thing that can still feel exciting and satisfying. Ooh. Does that make sense? Yeah. I would never... I had no idea. I- That's so interesting. Right? Yeah, fascinating. Why would you? It's the weirdest reason. Huh. But fragrance is the number one growing beauty industry in the world, and it has been for five years. Interesting. And I think a lot of that has to do with TikTok and people talking- Mm ... about it. Mm. Because it's something you need to experience in person. Yeah. But when somebody talks about it and you respect that influencer and you've liked other perfumes that she talks about- Yeah ... people are like, "Well, now I have to try that one. That might be better than the other ones you recommended to me." Mm. So how does someone like me how do you find the fragrances that you love if you don't have an Ode in your- Right ... town or city? Yeah. I mean, is that- Well- ... something that you help with or- Yeah ... or we do our own research? Well, like I did, I used to just order a ton of samples. Mm-hmm. Because I was like, "I think I like something like this," and I kind of narrowed it down that way- Uh-huh ... before I had something. And you can go to Neiman and Nordstrom, because there's some good high-end fragrances there, just to get a sense of the kinds of fragrances that you like. Yeah. Do you like citrus? Do you like woody? Do you like vanilla? Like, there's these very broad categories that you are naturally going to be drawn to. So that is kind of a way to limit it. , now we do a custom scent bag on our website that brings our fragrance bar experience to you. Mm-hmm. 'Cause if you can't physically come to the store- People can buy this and we'll send five samples. We'll send a questionnaire, you fill it out, of things you've liked in the past, smells you've liked, perfumes you've worn and liked, some you haven't. And then we pick five samples based on your answers and send them to you- Oh to try to see if you like them. And then people get a 10% off if they buy a full size bottle. But- So smart. Yeah. That's- 'Cause I, I'm like the, like Neiman Marcus or Nordstrom experience doesn't appeal to me at all. Right. I love the stories that you tell- Yeah ... about the makers of the- Mm-hmm ... you know, fragrance that you carry in the shop. Yeah. And I, I, I want that story. Right. I just have not a clue- Right ... of what I like, so that's a great- Well, and we do appointments at the store. Yeah. So you come in and you have 45 minutes with us while we're trying to figure out what you love. Yeah. So the custom scent bag is just like a mini version of that appointment. Yeah. That way we can figure out kinda what you like and... But the best way to do it if you're in a town without a fragrance boutique like mine is to l- go to like Sephora or Ulta or Neiman- Mm-hmm ... or Nordstrom, just to smell a bunch and be like, "What do I think I like here?" Yeah. "What do I like more than others?" You know, that kinda thing. Yeah, absolutely. Or you just book a trip to Denver. Or you just book the trip to Denver. We are the hot thing to do in the city. I love it. I love it. Where should people find you? I mean, your shop Instagram, which is a favorite- Yeah ... of mine. Yeah. It's just- I also love following you personally, but you tell us. I mean, we have @odetoshop or odetoperfume.com, and I'm there, but my staff is there as well, and then I have my personal stuff, which is just @rachelgreiman rachelgrieman.com.com. Okay. And it's still like a photography website that I will very randomly still do photos, but, I mean- Yeah ... it's definitely not the focus right now. Right. Right. Yeah, you have enough other things going on. Yes, exactly. , thank you so much for being here. I lo- I love- Oh my gosh, of course ... catching up with you. This was so fun. Yeah. And, , I know a lot of people take something from our- Yeah ... wandering, broad- ... Yet very specific conversation. Thank you for letting me wander and for your thoughtful questions. I so appreciate it. Of course. All right, I'll talk with you soon. Thank you for listening and as always, for being a part of this working mom community. You can find everything related to this episode in the show notes at themothernurture.com/podcast, you can also find information about how I support working moms just like you through one-on-one, and group coaching, as well as access a number of resources and articles all on my website at themothernurture.com. I will see you again next week for another episode of the podcast.

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CareerKatelyn DenningWorking Mom, Real Story